gimpy’s blog

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Adventures in paediatric homeopathy

Posted by gimpy on January 10, 2008

Let me take you on a journey through the homeopathic education system. I recently came across this site, Adventures in Medicine, that offers a postgraduate course in paediatric homeopathy. The rationale for the course is described as follows:

There is a large gap in the training of homoeopaths when it comes to treating children. Most homoeopaths have to struggle for years to gain the knowledge and experience required to create a successful practice in paediatrics.

This course is designed to bridge that gap by providing training in paediatric care by experienced teachers who are experts in their field.

It is also designed to empower and support students to enable them to practice with knowledge and confidence in what is often a very little understood area of homoeopathy.

These seem worthy aims, after all it is worrying that a profession that so desperately craves respectability fails to adequately train its practitioners to work with the most vulnerable section of society, children. I am glad that the organisers of this course think that the notion that homeopaths have to effectively experiment on young children to gain knowledge is a step too far. I am also glad that the organisers have access to experienced teachers who are experts in their field. The field of paediatrics is fraught with difficult ethical issues and guidelines for working with children are necessarily strict. I would hope that these expert teachers are members of, or at least trained on courses accredited by, The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health Care who uphold standards in medical care for children. After all the course does allow successful candidates to receive a Diploma in Homeopathic Paediatrics and be able to use the letters DHP after their name. This will indicate to parents that they have specialist training and knowledge of treating children.

But before we look at these experts, let us look at the course structure, content and assessment.

The course runs over nine months and consists of weekend long seminars consisting of lectures and tutorials with a typical day lasting from 1000-1800 with 2 hours of breaks. So in total that is 108 hours, which is about the equivalent of a course run over a semester in academia, a perfectly adequate time to acquire reasonable knowledge.

It is this knowledge where doubts begin to creep in about the appropriateness of this course in preparing homeopaths for paediatric work. The course content includes lectures on Genetics/Miasms/Conception and Birth and Cranial Osteopathy that bear worrying signs that the teachers might not be familiar with conventional paediatric concepts. This leads to concerns that the other lecturers on Vaccination, Infectious Diseases and Skin and Respiratory Disorders amongst others might not reflect current medical knowledge.

Still I hope that their assessments are suitably strict.

The course will run on a self-assessment basis. Each student will be expected to fill in a self-assessment form each month and complete a paper case on the theme of the day, both to be handed in the following month. The self-assessment forms enable the student to gauge their progress, and the teaching staff to assess where individual students may need help.

So perhaps not then. Self assessment provides no prevention against cheating or plagiarism. I wonder what the pass rates for this course are?

I hope the above concerns are alleviated by the qualifications of the course teachers. Lets look at these experts:

Stella Berg:

Stella discovered homoeopathy in 1980 after fifteen years’ searching, and trained at the College of Homoeopathy………..She worked with John Morgan to open Helios Pharmacy, and published several homoeopathic journals in the 1980s. Since 1988 she has run apprenticeship and post graduate courses, and practises in London, Ross and Abergavenny. Her special interests are gynaecology, developmental and nervous disorders and oral disease.

Marian Camilleri:

Marian originally trained as a psychiatric nurse, qualifying in 1986. She then undertook further training in child and adolescent mental health and family therapy. For the past 20 years she has specialised in this field and currently works as a community nurse specialist helping children at risk of exclusion from school. While working with children, she became concerned at the number being treated with drugs for conditions such as ADHD and autistic spectrum disorders and began exploring alternatives. While attending a course on Australian Bush essences with Ian White she decided to train as a homeopath. Marian completed her training as a homeopath in 2005 at the South Downs College of Homeopathy. Her final year dissertation was on ADHD and Homeopathy.

Nina Constandinou:

Nina Constandinou qualified as an Osteopath and Naturopath in 1990 from the British College of Osteopathy & Naturopathy (now the British College of Osteopathic Medicine). After graduation she studied Cranial Osteopathy at postgraduate level and also trained in cranio-sacral therapy. As well as working in her own practice, Nina has spent time working as a member of staff at the Osteopathic Centre for Children, and as a clinical tutor at the British School of Osteopathy.

Hilery Dorian:

Hilery Dorrian started her career as an acupuncturist, qualifying from Leamington Spa in 1981. She went on to study Homoeopathy at the London college of Homoeopathy graduating in 1988. Homoeopathy quickly became her passion and she continued her studies in India. She runs a very busy practice in Surrey and also works at the healthy Living Centre in London. She teaches at many of the homeopathic colleges in London and the South East. Skin problems have always interested Hilery and she treats lots of eczema and psoriasis in her clinic. Her interest in these problems led to her setting up Barefoot Botanicals, a natural skincare company, with fellow Homoeopath Jonathan Stallick.

Anna Foxell:

Anna Foxell is an expert in homeopathy and antenatal education. She provides solutions to a wide range of health problems both emotional and physical. After working as a psychiatric nurse, she trained as an antenatal teacher for the National Childbirth Trust, qualifying in 1982. She then worked for the Youth Counselling agency SPACE in Slough and Windsor as a counsellor before training as a homeopath in the mid 90s and has had a busy practice in Windsor ever since. Anna has broad experience of treating most of the common conditions which afflict many of us today, typically, eczema, asthma, PMT, migraine and depression. She treats a lot of pregnant women and young children, even tiny babies, and enjoys seeing conditions resolve quickly, restoring the balance in life that we all deserve.

Lorraine Grayston:

Lorraine Grayston has been a full time practising homeopath for the last twelve years and brings extensive experience of working with children, from conception onwards, and the families they are born in to. Whilst she works with all aspects of childhood, she is particularly passionate about working with the mental and emotional impact of life situations on children to help them to a place of health. She is a core teacher at the Lakeland College of Homeopathy and designs and delivers practitioner and personal development training as co-founder for the Centre of Homeopathic and Shamanic Medicine.

Christina Head:

Christina Head qualified from the London College of Homoeopathy in 1986 and began practicing in Manchester where she quickly developed a busy local practice. She continued as a Member of the College, teaching both there and the Northern College of Homoeopathy, in addition to giving Adult Education classes and local talks. She completed a years teacher training in 1995 and has given many talks in colleges and to the public on various homoeopathic subjects, in particular Vaccinations. In 1988 she left Manchester and came to live in Surrey where she still lives. After working in two South London clinics she created a small multidisciplinary centre in Clapham Junction (Baby Valley!), and continued teaching until 2002. Christina has also written a book “An Educated Decision” to inform parents and practitioners about the homoeopathic approach to vaccinations.

Dr Patrick Quanten:

Dr Quanten was born in Belgium in 1955 and qualified in Brussels as a medical practitioner in 1983. From there he went straight to the island of Alderney, in the Channel, where he ran his own single-handed practice for over 18 years. For the last ten years of that time, he struggled to integrate western medicine and the alternative therapies that he had come across. Frustration with the ineffectiveness of medicine had driven him to study everything he could find. In 2001, when it became clear that integration was a total impossibility, he gave up his practice and started dedicating his whole life to the teaching of a better understanding of health.

Diana Tibble:

Diana Tibble is a Registered Member of the Society of Homeopaths, specialising in Obstetrics. Prior to training as a homeopath at Purton House Diana had sixteen years experience as a practising midwife. Whilst working as a community midwife she won a scholarship enabling her to study counselling to postgraduate level at Hertfordshire University. She teaches at various homeopathy colleges and regularly on the Obstetric module on the HPTG course for doctors and nurses studying homeopathy.

Jenni Tree:

I have studied homoeopathy for over twenty years and have taught for 17 of those in colleges in England, Finland, The Netherlands, Australia and Sweden. I’ve studied in depth with the Bombay group – Divya Chhabra and Rajan Sankaran in particular since the 1980′s, but also count amongst my many teachers Jeremy Sherr, Jan Scholten and Lou Klein.

Trevor Gunn:

Trevor Gunn graduated in Medical Biochemistry in 1983 and has been practising homeopathy since 1989. He is currently Vice Principal of the Japanese College of Homeopathy in London. Author of ‘Mass Immunisation – A point in question’ and ‘Comparing Natural Immunity with Vaccination’, he has researched extensively into the effects of vaccines and other pharmaceutical drugs on the human body.

Myriam Shivadikar:

Myriam has been in clinical practice for 21 years and has taught internationally for 20 years and in the UK for the last 8 years. She has a unique, eclectic approach to treating patients, which combines mind, body and spiritual aspects.. Her training began with Acupuncture and Homeopathy and her own research into remedies via bioresonance machines. She then studied diet, nutrition and herbal medicine, which are incorporated in order to advise patients regarding lifestyle and to remove maintaining causes. The spiritual aspect of the origin of disease is perceived using insights gained intuitively via astrology, tarot and from her understanding of homeopathic remedies.

This is all very worrying. While there are some medically qualified teachers none of them appear to have any formal training in paediatrics or child health. More worrying still is the heavy anti-vaccination emphasis of many of the teachers. In fact Christina Head, the course organiser, aneducateddecision.com, runs a ludicrous anti-vaccination site that advocates homeoprophylaxis for childhood diseases.

I believe that this course and its content emphasises the need for proper regulation of the homeopathic profession. Not only is the course unaccredited, making it as valid as Gilian McKeith’s PhD, it is not overseen by any body dedicated to maintaining standards of paediatric education but it also seems to promote content that is dangerously ignorant. Vaccination save lives. To argue against vaccination is irresponsible. To incorporate those arguments into an education programme that gives the appearance of competence is downright dangerous.

This course aimed at increasing the competence of homeopaths to work with children actually reduces that competence by promoting dangerous nonsense. We would not let doctors or nurses specialise in paediatrics without appropriate qualifications and training so why should homeopaths be in any different?

Homeopathy is in desperate need of a firm hand to rein in it’s excesses and ludicrous claims, this blog has shown that professional organisations set up by homeopaths are woefully inadequate for this purpose and, as the Quackometer has discussed, homeopaths don’t want other people to regulate them. Homeopathy is out of control and must be stopped.

Won’t somebody think of the children?

57 Responses to “Adventures in paediatric homeopathy”

  1. jdc325 said

    “Trevor Gunn graduated in Medical Biochemistry in 1983 and has been practising homeopathy since 1989.”
    I think the former makes the latter even harder to understand. The implication is that Gunn understands Biochemistry and believes that Homeopathy works. Cognitive dissonance, perhaps?

  2. Ohreally said

    Jcd325: – “Trevor Gunn graduated in Medical Biochemistry in 1983 and has been practising homeopathy since 1989.”
    I think the former makes the latter even harder to understand. The implication is that Gunn understands Biochemistry and believes that Homeopathy works. Cognitive dissonance, perhaps? -

    Perhaps Trevor Gunn just understands Biochemistry and understands Homeopathy, whereas Jdc325 has a belief system that gets in the way of a scientific evaluation of the facts.

  3. gimpy said

    Ohreally, I understand biochemistry and I understand homeopathy. The two are wholly incompatible.

  4. Susan said

    The Gimpy Challenge (POSTED ON http://www.otherhealth.com)

    ——————————————————————————–
    Edited for irrelevance by Gimpy

  5. Ohreally said

    Er … Gimpy, you have not demonstrated any such understanding. I would refer people to posts 5 through 8 on http://homeopathy4health.wordpress.com/2007/12/28/sleep-medication-to-treat-a-sleep-like-state-treating-like-with-like/#comment, where you showed a complete failure to understand the very first principle of homeopathy.

  6. gimpy said

    Ohreally, I know that homeopathic dilutions are commonly diluted beyond the point where any molecule of the original substance remains yet homeopaths insist it has a biological effect. Biochemistry is the study of molecules within living systems and how they are modified and interact with each other. Homeopathy cannot work by biochemistry as there are no molecules present to be modified or interact in living systems.

  7. Ohreally said

    Homeopathy does not depend on potentisation (see posts quoted before) – it is dependent on a relationship between the action of a substance on the organism and the existing signs and symptoms in the organism. So far no incompatibility with biochemistry, but there is no theoretical explanation in orthodox medicine of what this relationship is.

    Potentisation is part of a delivery system of the medicine, and biochemistry is as irrelevant to it as chemistry is to reading a cd: its action is entirely in the field of physics. I believe that many scientists have no problem with the idea that biology, physics and chemistry are all part of a consistent explanation of the world we live in. However you seem to think that physics can be dispensed with – no understanding, see what I mean?

  8. hcn57 said

    I am curious, what kind of diagnostic test does a pediatric homeopath perform?

    My family doctor used a quick strep test when we had several bouts of strep throat in our house, and then used a weekend long test on all family members to find the symptom-free child who had an untreated strep (he kept re-infecting his siblings). After treating the two children with symptoms AND the symptom free child with antibiotics the strep cycle was stopped. How would a pediatric homeopath find a lurking bacterial infection in a child without symptoms?

    Our family doctor found that one child had a heart murmur using his stethoscope. How would a pediatric homeopath find a heart murmur? What tools would they use?

    After discovery of the heart murmur the family doctor ordered an echocardiogram. That uses sound waves to check the function of the heart, even to the point of measuring flow velocities (physics!). He also had several different EKGs… a regular one with electrodes at his ankles, chest, etc, then a 24 hour EKG using a Holter, and finally a stress EKG on a treadmill (EKG = electrocardiogram, which measures the electrical potential between parts of the body, physics!). This was how a genetic structural anomaly of the heart muscle was found, it is called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

    How does a pediatric homeopath diagnose and treat hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

    I am curious how a homeopath treats a “whole” person without actually measuring things like blood pressure and temperature, or without listening to heart beats or breaths, not to mention analyzing bodily fluids. Especially when a classical homeopath is supposed to only treat symptoms without any regard as to what is causing the symptoms (like an infection or anatomical anomaly).

  9. “I believe that many scientists have no problem with the idea that biology, physics and chemistry are all part of a consistent explanation of the world we live in.”

    Ohreally, I just happened on this discussion by chance, but I’m afraid I can’t resist commenting on such “provocative” statement. I am a scientist and I have no problem whatsoever agreeing with this. Unfortunately, I don’t see where you’ve demonstrated even minimal understanding in these fields in either this discussion or the one reached through the link you’ve given, where you seem to think your sophistication is self-evident. Well, it’s not.

    You may very well have a working knowledge of classical Newtonian mechanics, but you clearly don’t understand that it doesn’t apply (i) through inappropriate analogies; (ii) to interactions at the molecular level; or (iii) where there is statistically no chance of any meaningful interaction at all, as in the homeopathic dilution method. All of which are fatal flaws in your arguments have been repeatedly pointed out to you by reasonable people.

    You keep referring to others’ ignorance of physics. Look, if one gets hit in the head by an airborne billiard ball, what happens next (the subsequent trajectories of head and ball, the placement and extent of tissue damage) will be determined by Newtonian mechanics. What happens within the victim after that (the biochemical responses to tissue trauma, possible loss of consciousness, perhaps death) will take place at the molecular level, and I defy you to accurately predict (which is what a scientifically correct model should be able to do) any of the consequences of the accident (or the consequences of anything, for that matter) at that level using Newtonian mechanics. Overall, it’s so complicated that only a systems biology approach could even begin to account for everything, but at least we have a good start towards that, and many of the relevant processes are indeed understood already at the molecular and systems level. You, with your Newtonian action/reaction physics, might be able to predict in which direction the victim will fall, not much else.

    I will readily admit that I don’t understand the principles of homeopathy. I do know that what I’ve heard so far from your arguments doesn’t convince me there’s any reason to feel I’m missing some major point. Out and out Voodoo has a more substantial basis for its effects. What I’ve truly marveled at in these discussion threads is the phenomenal arrogance you’ve shown in dismissing the simple and pointed science- and logic-based arguments of others as though you were dealing with grade school children or the brain-damaged. To me, this goes way beyond the realm of mere woo. Really, man, are you that delusional or just kidding?

  10. hairnet said

    “Er … Gimpy, you have not demonstrated any such understanding. I would refer people to posts 5 through 8 on http://homeopathy4health.wordpress.com/2007/12/28/sleep-medication-to-treat-a-sleep-like-state-treating-like-with-like/#comment, where you showed a complete failure to understand the very first principle of homeopathy.”

    And I would suggest people read comment 30 where ohreally makes the ridiculous affirmative statement “1 Unique substances must produce unique effects in the same circumstances” and then insists that explaining the ‘kindergarten’ level sophistication required to understand the statement is beneath them!! (Yes two exclamation marks!!)

    Not to mention their confusion over the concepts of ‘feedback system’ and ‘every action has an equal and opposite reaction.’

  11. Nash said

    ohreally

    “as irrelevant to it as chemistry is to reading a cd: its action is entirely in the field of physics.”

    Chemistry is involved in the manufacture of circuit boards in the player, the cd, the dyes and metallic coatings in the disk, etc.

    Do you really understand anything that is around you?

  12. hcn57 said

    Some interesting thoughts on homoepathy, including more of an explanation of classical homeopaths only treating symptoms (which in children could lead to dangerous conditions going undiagnosed and untreated):
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=21

  13. I’d be grateful if Ohreally, Susan or others who defend the scientific nature of homeopathy could comment on the following by one of the the course tutors (Ms Shivadikar): “The spiritual aspect of the origin of disease is perceived using insights gained intuitively via astrology, tarot and from her understanding of homeopathic remedies.”

    What possible part do astrology and tarot have in a scientific discipline?

  14. nash said

    As a former astrologer I can confirm it is bollocks

  15. Norbury said

    If you have a writeable CD then the data is encoded in phase changes in the reflective layer, rather than pits. Chemistry is involved in producing those phase changes. But, as my A-level physics teacher liked to say ‘Chemistry is just applied physics anyway’, so what’s your point? (although he might have been saying that to annoy my dad, who’s a chemist)

  16. Norbury said

    Sorry, not used to this not having an edit function, was referring to ohreally as quoted by Nash.

  17. hcn57 said

    Whenever I think of pediatric homeopaths I think of this:
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/death-of-baby-gloria-sparks-hunt-for-truth/2007/11/05/1194117959740.html

  18. pv said

    Really, man, are you that delusional or just kidding?

    I think the our friend ohreally demonstrates a basic ignorance of the world he inhabits, with all the arrogance and lack of awareness usually associated with that condition.

  19. Ohreally said

    Hcn57: “My family doctor used a quick strep test when we had several bouts of strep throat in our house, and then used a weekend long test on all family members to find the symptom-free child who had an untreated strep (he kept re-infecting his siblings). After treating the two children with symptoms AND the symptom free child with antibiotics the strep cycle was stopped. How would a pediatric homeopath find a lurking bacterial infection in a child without symptoms?”

    The first point that needs to be made is that the “strep throat” is not caused solely by the streptococcal infection, because the infection does not necessarily produce symptoms. One or more additional factors are needed for the throat symptoms to appear. Any medical intervention that does not take into account the other factor(s) is necessarily flawed in its approach to treatment.

    The second point is that the children’s continual re-infection indicates that their ability to cope with the infecting agent remained unchanged. The removal of the infecting agent does not mean necessarily that they were any better able to cope afterwards, but only that they did not have the same pressure on their health. It is like removing a substance from someone who is allergic to it. The allergy remains, but response is no longer being triggered.

    In the case of the symptomless child there are two possibilities:
    1) that there were symptoms, but they were not deemed relevant to a “strep throat” diagnosis. These symptoms would be relevant to a homeopath, and would be treated.
    2) that there were really no symptoms, in which case:
    a) the child was handling the infection without the need to exhibit symptoms (i.e. was in a better state of health);
    b) the child was in a very poor state of health and was unable to produce symptoms.
    The case history would reveal more information and allow any underlying condition to be treated.

    A healthy person fights off infection without noticing, and the more severe the symptoms, the more they reveal the difficulty the person has in recovering. With homeopathy the health of the patient is better after treatment, and so the infecting agent is encountered with a better ability to cope with it, and re-infection is unlikely to occur.

  20. Ohreally said

    As regards the hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, this is a much more complex issue. To a homeopath and to an orthodox doctor this is a serious pathology, and there should be close co-operation in such cases.

    If a homeopath had the child as a patient, the symptoms should lead the homeopath to identify the general nature of the problem, and possibly the specific problem, and one trained to recognise different heart sounds would do so more quickly – which is an argument for better integration of the investigative techniques of orthodox medicine and homeopathy. No sensible homeopath rejects tests, they just cannot obtain them if they need them in the UK without having to persuade a GP to order them (unless they work in the NHS). In other countries this is not necessarily the case, and homeopaths can use the full range of medical facilities.

    In terms of treatment, orthodox medicine would manage the case (not cure it), but from a homeopathic point of view the key question would be whether the child’s body was capable of repairing itself. I would expect the process of treating the child to reveal this fairly quickly, but a full answer depends on so many details that it is impossible to answer in the abstract.

    What it is important to remember is that the body is self-repairing. Sometimes improvement is impossible, but if it is possible, homeopathy can identify this and seek to use this ability in order to provide effective help. I would expect the chances to be better in a child, but it is not always the case. I repeat what I said above, however, that this is a serious pathology, and there should be close co-operation between the different disciplines in such cases if homeopathy is used to treat the condition.

  21. M Simpson said

    “What it is important to remember is that the body is self-repairing. Sometimes improvement is impossible, but if it is possible, homeopathy can identify this and seek to use this ability in order to provide effective help.”

    Hmm, this seems to be saying that the human body has an immune system which effectively makes many conditions self-limiting, and that if homeopathy is given to patients with these conditions the patient will get better. Is that what you’re saying? Because if it is, we may have found an area of agreement.

  22. Ohreally said

    Not exactly, because this would mean that healing could not take place if the immune system were compromised, especially to the extent of causing symptoms (as in so-called autoimmune diseases). There is also the question of whether the self-repair process is always capable of completion unassisted, and chronic illnesses indicate that this is not the case. As such many conditions are not self-limiting in the sense of resolving back to a healthier state without intervention.

  23. hcn57 said

    Ohreally said “There is also the question of whether the self-repair process is always capable of completion unassisted, and chronic illnesses indicate that this is not the case. As such many conditions are not self-limiting in the sense of resolving back to a healthier state without intervention.”

    What “chronic illnesses” are you referring to? This is a term that is used, but often without specifically naming what conditions they include. Funny coming from someone who wanted us to define some basic words. (GaleG ia also notorious for claiming that homeopathy works for chronic diseases, but failed to say exactly what, or to include any proof).

    Here is a list of chronic conditions that a child would have. Please list the verifiable documentation of homeopathy proving to provide better care than modern medicine from this choice of chronic conditions:

    diabetes
    cerebral palsy
    asthma
    hypertrophic cardiomyopathy
    epilepsy
    limb dyspraxia
    celiac disease
    muscular dystrophy
    osteogenesis imperfecta
    Landau Kleffner Syndrome
    phenylketonuria
    sickle cell disease

    Now this is not a very intensive list (trust me, there are lots more), so please name the particular chronic disease that your are referring to that homeopathy has proven successful in curing when real medicine feel. And, as always, you are requested to provide verifiable documentation.

  24. Ohreally said

    Chronic illnesses are those which last for some time, and are opposed to acute diseases which rapidly end in a return to health or death.

    It is against the law in the UK to claim that any disease, ailment, syndrome or condition is curable by homeopathy. As I explained the success in treating someone diagnosed with an illness depends on their ability to self-repair, and there are specific responses which allow this to be determined.

    I have also explained elsewhere that diseases, ailments, syndromes and conditions are defined by stopping at an arbitrary point in the process of differentiating states of ill-health, and so they do not form an absolute point of reference, but only a relative one. Furthermore they are relative to unknown factors, and so they have questionable scientific validity.

  25. hcn57 said

    Ohreally said “Chronic illnesses are those which last for some time, and are opposed to acute diseases which rapidly end in a return to health or death.”

    Okay, I know that. So I listed a bunch of them. So tell us what the successes homeopathy have had with those specific chronic diseases. And if homoepathy has failed for those, list the specific pediatric chronic diseases that you have proof that homeopathy has been proven better than modern medicine.

    Why do you keep talking in random generalities rather than in specifics? Give us the actual name of the diseases, the causes and the homeopathic cures.

    Or just tell me how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C.

  26. censored said

    ohreally: “the child was in a very poor state of health and was unable to produce symptoms.”

    So people in very poor health in fact appear well because they’re too ill to bother looking ill?

    My head hurts :(

  27. hcn57 said

    oh, crud… I missed this because I was scanning. So Ohreally said “b) the child was in a very poor state of health and was unable to produce symptoms.
    The case history would reveal more information and allow any underlying condition to be treated.”

    What an idiot. The child was in very good health, but was keeping the infection at bay, but it was still at a level to re-infect his siblings.

    That boy is now six feet tall and works as a lifeguard at the local pool, and might probably laugh in Ohreally’s face for his/her illiteracy of basic science, he already teases his brother about watching ghost hunting shows. (he has completed biology and chemistry, is now taking physics and AP Calculus, next year during he will take AP Chemistry and advanced physics before he graduates from high school… and since Ohreally seems to have only completed 9th grade basic science, this boy is way ahead of him/her)

    It also looks like the week of intensive lifeguard training he took last year when he was 16 made him more medically qualified than Ohreally. (yes, I am proud of him except when I am trying to convince him that dumping clean laundry on the floor is not “putting them away”)

    Oh, then he/she blathered on about hypertrophic cardiomyopathy saying “In terms of treatment, orthodox medicine would manage the case (not cure it), but from a homeopathic point of view the key question would be whether the child’s body was capable of repairing itself.”

    You don’t even know what it is! It is an abnormal thickening of the heart muscle. It cannot be repaired because the body’s genetics caused it. There are several levels of treatment, starting from beta-blockers, to removing the excess muscle on to heart transplants for more extreme cases. But still, many people live quite well with just taking the beta-blockers.

    Good grief, Ohreally did not even bother looking it up!

    Ohreally, do you think that a child with diabetes can self heal their pancreas?

    Still waiting for an answer to that simple high school level chemistry/algebra test. Also, to what kind of success homeopathy has to specific “chronic diseases”. Of course it would help if Ohreally would actually look up what the chronic disease is before pontificating about the supposed “cure”.

  28. Ohreally said

    Why is it that so few of you read properly?

    I never saw the “strep throat” case, so I could not say what actually happened, which you seem to think I should have. How foolish can you be to expect someone to make a judgement without the information. What I did do was point out alternatives, which I call being thorough. The second explanation for the infection being symptomless, namely that the child was too ill to produce symptoms would be identified by the context of the case history. For homeopaths illness is not a snapshot, but a film, and what is happening is understood by knowing what happened before in the case.

    I can understand why you expected me to have some supernatural knowledge of the case – after all you claim to know that I did not look up “hypertrophic cardiomyopathy”. Perhaps you could explain how you could be so certain? And may be produce evidence too? Even tell people what book I did not look it up in?

    Perhaps you could also provide evidence for your assertion that “It cannot be repaired because the body’s genetics caused it”, with references of course?

  29. hcn57 said

    A simple search would have given you this information:
    http://www.4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?overview

    Okay, all I will now ask you for now on are:

    Tell us how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C.

    Then tell us which chronic conditions are better served by homeopathy than by real medicine, with verifiable documentation.

  30. hcn57 said

    Ohreally asked (because he never looked up what HCM is) “Perhaps you could also provide evidence for your assertion that “It cannot be repaired because the body’s genetics caused it”, with references of course?”

    http://www.4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?id=79,0,0,1,0,0

    He also flayed with “I can understand why you expected me to have some supernatural knowledge of the case “…

    Uh, no… I just expected you to look up what the condition was. This is easily done even through Google, Medlineplus.gov, and any number of medical information websites (hey, some are even homeopathic ones that claim to cure it! No evidence, just blatant claimes).

    It is not like a homoepath would bother with an echocardiogram (by the way they cost about $2000!).

    Cystic fibrosis is also genetic. How do suppose homeopathy could teach the body to repair the lungs of a child with CF? Oh, sorry… it is another question. Just call it a more detailed version of “Then tell us which chronic conditions are better served by homeopathy than by real medicine, with verifiable documentation.”

    Also, here are the links to the treatment options for HCM:
    http://www.4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?aid=19

    (my oldest child falls in the oval saying “obstruction” on the right, he is only on drug therapy now). Oh, I have to do another detailed version of “Then tell us which chronic conditions are better served by homeopathy than by real medicine, with verifiable documentation.”, and ask how a homoepath would reduce the size of the heart muscle (“obstruction” means that it is possible for the mitral to get blocked by the abnormal heart muscle).

    Are we sure Ohreally isn’t someone who is just trying to make homeopaths look really really silly?

  31. Ohreally said

    Hcn57, Where is your evidence that the body cannot repair damage ascribed to a genetic cause?
    Why would I need to look up “strep throat”?
    How would I know about the overall health of someone with asymptomatic “strep throat” without ever seeing them or having their case history?
    Or do you just find it easier to allocate responses to subjects at random in the hope that they may prove statistically correct, while offering entertainment value to equally lazy thinkers?

    You also might like to explain how a “strep throat” is caused by a streptococcal infection, when you have stated that such an infection does not necessarily cause “strep throat”.

  32. hcn57 said

    You needed to look up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. If you look at my links they actually answer your silly questions about genetics, etc.

    You are also showing you are clueless about bacterial infection. Here is a clue, start learning http://www.medlineplus.gov, here is the strep article from there:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/streptococcalinfections.html

    You seem to be a person who stopped taking science after 9th grade, but who wants to play doctor. So you took the mail-order homeopathy course and now think you know enough about miasms to actually take a history and start “curing” people.

    You don’t even know how to look up basic medical conditions, nor how to calculate how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in Nat Mur 30C !

    Or you are just one of Badscience Goldacre Gang who is posting inanities to make homeopaths look even sillier.

  33. hcn57 said

    You should have looked up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Did you miss all the links that answer your questions?

    I cannot believe you do not know how to look up information on strep throat. Here is some information that you can start with:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/streptococcalinfections.html

    Also, the boy in question did have a strep infection, but he was not showing any symptoms. He was a “healthy carrier” of the strep bacteria. A throat culture did indicate he was infected. So he was given antibiotics, which stopped the rounds of re-infecting the siblings.

    For a historical reference to another healthy carrier read about Typhoid Mary:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary

    I would also suggest that instead of relying on a mail order instruction of homeopathy, that you pick up some of the science education that you abandoned after 9th grade. Community colleges are good places to pick up missed courses.

  34. hcn57 said

    Okay, for the third try… two of my posts have landed in the ether.

    Ohreally, you should have looked up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I was at least able to leave links to the HCM site.

    Also, look up the term “healthy carrier” and “Typhoid Mary” (I tried a link, but it prevented the post from appearing).

    Plus, please try to get your science education above that of a typical 14 year old. Go to a library, check out some basic science books, and actually read them. The Dorling Kindersley books have some nice big graphics that should help you understand. Go to classes at a community college (that is where my son got his high school biology credits, which is why he is able to fit in two years each of chemistry and physics before entering university).

  35. Ohreally said

    Hcn57: I am not sure what questions you think you are answering, but they are not mine. Could explain which words you are having problems with, so that we can establish your reading level?

    To save you finding the relevant post:

    Where is your evidence that the body cannot repair damage ascribed to a genetic cause?
    Why would I need to look up “strep throat”?
    How would I know about the overall health of someone with asymptomatic “strep throat” without ever seeing them or having their case history?

    You also might like to explain how a “strep throat” is caused by a streptococcal infection, when you have stated that such an infection does not necessarily cause “strep throat”.

  36. hcn57 said

    You needed to look up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

    A streptococal infection causes lots of other symtoms aside from strep throat. You would know that if you looked up the article I posted.

    Really, you do need to get your science education past the 9th grade level. Do try to work on that.

  37. Ohreally said

    Hcn57: You are still evading the questions.

    Where is your evidence that the body cannot repair damage ascribed to a genetic cause?
    Looking up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is irrelevant. You made a general assertion – where is the evidence to support it?

    Why would I need to look up “strep throat”?
    I had no need to look up a common condition, and based on your post I would say that I understood the condition better than you.

    How would I know about the overall health of someone with asymptomatic “strep throat” without ever seeing them or having their case history?
    Well?

    You also might like to explain how a “strep throat” is caused by a streptococcal infection, when you have stated that such an infection does not necessarily cause “strep throat”.
    You are a real mess over this one, aren’t you? You are creating more and more effects and failing to relate them to causes. Do you actually understand the relationship between cause and effect?

  38. hcn57 said

    I will continue to ignore your pointless questions until you do the following:

    Tell me how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C.

    Explain to me how homeopathy heals one of the following genetic conditions (with verifiable proof): cystic fibrosis, diabetes Type 1, sickle cell anemia, Down’s Syndrome, or one of your own choosing.

    Or get a science education above that of a typical 13 year old.

  39. HJ said

    Is this an “answer a question with a question” thread?

    Do I win?

  40. HCN said

    Yes, but only if you tell me how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C !

    Oh, wait… you’ll have to ask our esteemed host Gimpy about that!

  41. vIQleS said

    Stella discovered homoeopathy in 1980 after fifteen years’ searching…

    15 years?! WTF?

    Anyone that can’t figure out how to use a phonebook or a public library shouldn’t be trying to teach anyone anything…
    :P

  42. Ohreally said

    HJ: No, I’m afraid not. This is the let’s ignore the important and difficult questions in favour of silly and unnecessary ones.

  43. HCN said

    Silly and unnecessary questions like:

    How well homeopathy cures:
    type 1 diabetes
    sickle cell anemia
    haemophilus influenza type B
    cerebral palsy
    asthma
    hypertrophic cardiomyopathy
    epilepsy
    celiac disease
    muscular dystrophy

    Come on, do tell us about the great successes homeopathy has had with those conditions. And while you are at it, tell how well it worked for this child:
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/death-of-baby-gloria-sparks-hunt-for-truth/2007/11/05/1194117959740.html

  44. Ohreally said

    HCN: One child dies of neglect and you blame homeopathy. Who do you blame for the following?

    The Independent 21 October 2007:
    “One study estimated that the equivalent of all the beds from seven general hospitals – 5,600 places – are occupied with patients suffering from drug reactions at any one time, costing the NHS more than £450m each year. Researchers believe around 70 per cent of adverse reactions could be avoided through better training, computerised prescribing systems and staff spending more time talking and listening to patients.

    The latest revelations follow The Independent on Sunday’s exclusive report two months ago highlighting the dramatic rise in the number of drugs that doctors are now prescribing.

    The report in August showed that the NHS faced an £8.2bn bill for prescription medicines in England in 2006, as doctors issued 51 per cent more drugs than they did 10 years earlier.

    But today’s revelations highlight a 155 per cent rise in reported deaths from adverse reactions to prescribed and over-the-counter drugs – a far steeper increase that will shock the both medical profession and patient groups.”

  45. Ohreally said

    And yes, you are asking a silly question. The method of distinguishing those diseases is seriously flawed in terms of its use as basis for treatment, as you would well know – if you knew the scientific principles on which that system of medicine is based. That is why homeopaths do not use those labels other than as convenient mnemonics for the common aspects of cases.

  46. hcn57 said

    How come Ohreally never answers any real questions? Is it because he/she only has the science education of the average 12 year old?

    How does a homeopath distinguish the difference between Hib and croup? How many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C ?

  47. robert said

    Gosh, this argument is silly… some people just seem to argue for the case of arguing. How about both agreeing:
    1. Practical medicine is valuable and we can’t live without it
    2. Homeopathy is a good add on- where classical medicine fails or runs out of explanations.

    … and here is one study for the atheists http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4454856.stm

  48. robert said

    Just more studies…
    http://www.holisticonline.com/Homeopathy/homeo_clinical.htm

  49. Nash said

    Robert.

    Homeopathy is not a good add-on. We can live without it.

    The bbc story does not refer to a clinical trial. It was a survey taken as patients left the hospital. All the times I have been to see a doctor I have felt better as I have left the building.

    The holisticonline does not name the studies it quotes. eg

    “A study, conducted in 1985, found that patients who took the homeopathic product Oscillococcinum, derived from duck heart and liver, experienced reduction in their fever much rapidly (in two days ) than those who took placebo. Shivering disappeared by day four. In another controlled study, published in 1989 in the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 66 percent more of the Oscillococcinum group recovered within forty-eight hours as compared to the placebo group.”

    What was being treated? Colds, which I happen to know what Oscillococcinum is used for. Colds tend to go in a week anyway. So take Oscillococcinum and it will go in 7 days.

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