gimpy’s blog

inane witterings and badscience

NHS support for homeopathy evaporates

Posted by gimpy on January 30, 2008

According to a study by Pulse, homeopathy is the highest profile victim of Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) cost effective approach to NHS resources. According to Pulse only 37% of NHS PCTs still have contracts for homeopathic services while a quarter have stopped or reduced funding over the past two years. Pulse suggest that this is a result of the open letter written in 2006 calling for the abandonment of homeopathy, and other alternative therapies, on the grounds of no evidence of efficacy.

Pulse claim that

Homeopathic clinics in the UK are in crisis. Tunbridge Wells Homoeopathic Hospital in Kent has announced it will close and the Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital is fighting for survival after eight trusts cancelled contracts over the past year, and a further six reduced referrals. Referrals to the hospital are down 20% in a year.

The withdrawal of funding for homeopathy was justified by Prof. Edzard Ernst, a former homeopath,as it is no more than a placebo.

There can be no cost-effectiveness without effectiveness

These sentiments were echoed by Professor Michael Baum, one of the signatories of the 2006 letter, in a quote on the BBC website

The NHS should be putting its money into evidence-based medicine, so this is a good start, but while people are starting to realise they are being conned by the whole complementary medicine establishment, it will be a long time before we see the back of it.

Now this statement is provocative and perhaps a little unfair on homeopaths as I believe the vast majority of them, medically qualified or otherwise, are sincere. I think it is a case that they have fooled themselves into thinking homeopathy works better than a placebo despite ample evidence to the contrary. However, the arguments that homeopaths are involved in a con is given strength by the reaction of the Faculty of Homeopaths (FoH) and Peter Fisher, director of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital, to the withdrawal of funds for homeopathy. Peter Fisher seems to have abandoned any argument using evidence and relies instead on a fallacious appeal to public and political support followed by an entirely irrelevant list of other therapies

For one, there’s a lot of public and political support,” said Dr Peter Fisher, adding that in any event homoeopathy comprised only 40% on the services on offer, which included nutritional medicine and relaxation techniques.

The FoH likewise don’t cite any scientific evidence and instead opt for patient satisfaction which is no marker for successful treatment.

The homoeopathic hospitals provide a specialist service that has helped hundreds of thousands of NHS patients over the last 60 years and has extremely high levels of patient satisfaction.

They are particularly well equipped to treat patients whose complex chronic health problems have not been effectively treated by conventional medicine.

The last sentence is particularly intriguing as it is reminiscent of the the God of the gaps argument used by some theists. Now leaving aside the fact that homeopathy has not been shown to successfully treat any non-self limiting health problem this argument leads inexorably to the evaporation of homeopathy as a treatment option as science and modern medicine increase the number of diseases treatable by conventional methods. Such an argument is also wide open to claims that homeopathy is merely a placebo in which case it is easy to argue that money should be spent on effective methods of palliative care for those with incurable conditions.

The Pulse article concludes with a very revealing comment from Tim Robinson, a GP with a homeopathic service,

patients denied homeopathic treatments on the NHS might take risks by consulting non-medical practitioners. ‘They will have to pay someone and go to a non-doctor and there are potential risks with that,’ he said.

One wonders how much distrust there is between supporters of homeopathy in the medical profession and non-medically qualified practitioners? This distrust is justified given that non-medically qualified homeopaths are claiming to treat and cure AIDS, cancer, malaria, ADHD and autism amongst other diseases. I’ve speculated before about the awkward situation homeopathy finds itself in, medically qualified practitioners rely on the support of non-medically qualified homeopaths but seem to regard some of their actions and ideas as profoundly dangerous while the non-medically qualified homeopaths see homeopathy as an alternative to conventional medicine and many believe that all drugs are dangerous and harmful. It is hard to see how this terrible dichotomy can be resolved and I suspect it will ultimately result in the disintegration of homeopathy.

46 Responses to “NHS support for homeopathy evaporates”

  1. jdc Says:

    Good stuff. That quote from Ernst is a belter - “there can be no cost-effectiveness without effectiveness”.

  2. Kat Says:

    ‘They will have to pay someone and go to a non-doctor and there are potential risks with that,’ he said.’

    But aren’t we constantly being told that homepoathy is completely safe? So what risks?. Or, oh, does he mean the risks of people who might actually have serious medical conditions being told to stop taking their real medicine and use sugar pills instead? Or people being given advice not to take real anti-malarials and rely on ultra-diluted-to-the-point-of-none swamp water?

    I’d have more respect for medically qualified homepaths if they were just honest enough to say “It’s OK as a placebo for the worried well with self limiting conditions, but let’s not pretend it will actually cure any named disease.”

  3. mugsandmoney Says:

    I thought that GP quote was a hoot

    “They will have to pay someone and go to a non-doctor and there are potential risks with that,’ he said.”

    Follow that logic through -
    Patient: “I’m going to consult a witch doctor”
    GP: “We’ll provide witch doctoring on the NHS, it’s safer”

  4. gimpy Says:

    Mugsandmoney, I know it is easy to mock that GP quote but it does touch on serious issues. GPs and other medical practitioners are responsible for their actions and will be held to account should they mess up, non medically qualified homeopaths are, in practice, not accountable for their actions to any professional organisation. They also have little or no conventional medical knowledge so cannot determine their patients health to a satisfactory level.

  5. mugsandmoney Says:

    Sorry, didn’t mean that to come over as mocking. It’s just flawed logic - the GP seems to imply that the patients are being denied a fundamental right, which is not at all the case.

    I agree that it’s 100% preferable that patients see properly trained, qualified, and regulated practitioners.

  6. pv Says:

    It would be a very good thing for all if homeopathy was removed from its protective hiding place under the NHS. Firstly it would remove the false credibility conferred on homeopathy by its association with the NHS. Secondly, if homeopaths have so much confidence in their product they will be just as happy for it to stand outside the NHS and be judged on its merits.
    I really don’t understand the fear that this move will drive patients away from NHS GPs into the clutches of non-medically qualified homeopaths. If people choose to put their health in the hands of homeopaths that’s their prerogative - it’s their choice. And we know how important choice is, don’t we? Why should real GPs who refer patients to homeopaths be worried? Is there something they’re not being entirely open about?

    My own point of view is that if people get hurt by being foolish enough to put their lives in the hands of the average homeopath, then they shouldn’t be protected from the consequences of their actions. The SoH and others do their utmost to persude people that homeopathy is medicine, so they shouldn’t be protected from the consequences either.
    Of course this will all end in tears I think, and sooner rather than later I hope. The sooner there are lawsuits for negligence, and manslaughter or worse, so much the better - not for the foolhardy patients, obviously, but for the greater good. It would be no more than the folks at the SoH deserve.
    Homeopaths can’t have it all ways.

  7. pv Says:

    I forgot to mention those nice people who “manufacture” homeopathic remedies. Let’s hope it brings a lot of grief on their malodorous heads too.

  8. Bill Says:

    The prominent internet homeopath Dr. Organon isn’t worried by this development.

    “Heh, I wouldn’t worry so much (and welcome to the forum btw), we have survived a lot more than this for over 200 years, and some of us are currently working on the formulation of workable scientific theories on how Homoeopathy actually works, in the context of the very latest thinking in molecular physics, so it is only a matter of time before such methods of supression are themselves curtailed.”

    So you see, once the very latest thinking on molecular Physics as it applies to homeopathy is revealed, public confidence in it will be restored.

    I can hardly wait.

  9. Humber Says:

    From Dr Tim Tobinson at Pulse;
    “The sceptics will say patients improve because of regression to the norm. The cases I have chosen certainly don’t support this – they were showing no sign of spontaneous healing.”

    Not yet (then) showing signs of spontaneous healing.

    “Sceptics may even be as discourteous as to suggest I am deliberately misleading my patients, but I give them the choice between conventional medicine and homeopathy, and honestly state that we don’t know how or why homeopathy should work”

    This is both leading and misleading the patient.

    They really do have a logical world all of their own.

  10. Claire Says:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=25&storycode=4117018&c=2 “Does homeopathy have any place in general practice” debate between Dr Tim Robinson and Professor Edzard Ernst. Includes a reader poll…

  11. phayes Says:

    Good grief! I do hope the results of that poll don’t accurately reflect the opinion of the medical profession. The idea that my GP or the local NHS hospital doctors could be anywhere near as ignorant and stupid as Dr Robinson is really rather frightening.

  12. le canard noir Says:

    I don’t think it would take too many votes to sway that back again?

  13. jaycueaitch Says:

    We can hope that this is the beginning of the end of homeopathy, but I wouldn’t count on it. The likes of Sue Young and Mary English seem to make quite a good living outside the NHS.

  14. gimpy Says:

    Ahh yes JQH, they might at the moment but it is clear there is a lot of unease within the medically qualified homeopath community about the actions of the non-medically qualified homeopaths. Perhaps we will see homeopathic GPs muscling in on the private practice market.

  15. Bill Says:

    I still can’t see how any medically trained person can believe in homeopathy.

  16. phayes Says:

    pffft!

    The world is full of people ‘trained’ in maths and physics who believe in homeopathy and any number of other nonsenses.

    Worse - you can likely find some *Nobel laureate* who ‘believes’ in some ugly and miserable drivel like homeopathy.

    They all have one thing in common: they’re stupid - even if once they were not.

  17. GaleG Says:

    Everyone take a deep breath….in and out…..

    Here is something for you to read: a well-designed double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled study about homeopathy.

    http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/127/3/936

    Good science has posted the link on the goodscience blog,and woodchopper said:

    “Now the Chest paper that you published on your blog is interesting and appeared to demonstrate a clear effect.”

    Here is the abstract:

    Influence of Potassium Dichromate on Tracheal Secretions in Critically Ill Patients*
    Michael Frass, MD; Christoph Dielacher, RN; Manfred Linkesch, MD; Christian Endler, PhD; Ilse Muchitsch, PhD; Ernst Schuster, PhD and Alan Kaye, MD

    * From the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Homeopathy (Drs. Frass, Endler, and Muchitsch), Vienna, Austria; II Department of Internal Medicine (Mr. Dielacher and Dr. Linkesch); Department of Medical Computer Sciences (Dr. Schuster), University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria; and Department of Anesthesiology (Dr. Kaye), Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX.

    Correspondence to: Michael Frass, MD, Professor of Medicine, Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Homeopathy, Duerergasse 4, A 8010 Graz, Austria; e-mail: michael.frass@kabsi.at

    Abstract

    Background: Stringy, tenacious tracheal secretions may prevent extubation in patients weaned from the respirator. This prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study with parallel assignment was performed to assess the influence of sublingually administered potassium dichromate C30 on the amount of tenacious, stringy tracheal secretions in critically ill patients with a history of tobacco use and COPD.

    Methods: In this study, 50 patients breathing spontaneously with continuous positive airway pressure were receiving either potassium dichromate C30 globules (group 1) [Deutsche Homöopathie-Union, Pharmaceutical Company; Karlsruhe, Germany] or placebo (group 2). Five globules were administered twice daily at intervals of 12 h. The amount of tracheal secretions on day 2 after the start of the study as well as the time for successful extubation and length of stay in the ICU were recorded.

    Results: The amount of tracheal secretions was reduced significantly in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Extubation could be performed significantly earlier in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Similarly, length of stay was significantly shorter in group 1 (4.20 ± 1.61 days vs 7.68 ± 3.60 days, p < 0.0001 [mean ± SD]).

    Conclusion: These data suggest that potentized (diluted and vigorously shaken) potassium dichromate may help to decrease the amount of stringy tracheal secretions in COPD patients.

    This is the first scientific study of the effect of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions. While the mechanism of potentized (diluted and vigorously shaken) drugs still remains subject to research, several articles describe its clinical usefulness.222324 The effect may be best explained by cybernetics, which means that the information of the homeopathic drug acts consensually on the regulator. Thereby, the body regains its original property to regulate physical parameters.

    Key Words: COPD • double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study • extubation • homeopathy • tracheal secretions

  18. GaleG Says:

    The American College of Chest Physicians (ACCP) is the world’s largest clinical cardiopulmonary and critical care medical society with 16,600 members in 100 countries. Members include physicians, allied health professionals, and PhDs from the specialties of pulmonology, critical care medicine, thoracic surgery, cardiology, sleep, and other chest-related specialties.

    Founded in 1935, the ACCP works to promote the prevention and treatment of diseases of the chest through leadership, education, research, and communication. To achieve this mission, the ACCP publishes CHEST, delivers clinically focused continuing medical education programs, participates in advocacy issues, and more.

  19. Nash Says:

    Re 17 and 18. For an analysis goto

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/07/homeopathy_in_thecringeicu_1.php#more

    More seriously ill patients were not given the H magic water.

  20. hcn57 Says:

    Gale, you really ought to ignore Dana Ullman. He just repeats the same falicies, even after being told they are flat out lies.

    See:
    http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/homeopathic-revolution-by-dana-ullman.html

    The conversation even continues after this exchange:
    HCN said…
    Don’t worry, he will come back spouting the same drivel about Gully being a homeopath, that the Chest paper showed homeopathy worked, that Oscillococcinum works for flu and that water is like a CD-ROM.

    Then we will go and send the links where he was told multiple times that he was wrong.

    ACH wrote about his mode of operation here:
    http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3902&sid=21f71e6dc700d656412ccd9fbba4a1fd

    Thursday, 20 December, 2007
    Le Canard Noir said…
    And, as if by magic, the bookwriter appeared - back on my Darwin post, “spouting the same drivel about Gully being a homeopath”.

    Wow. are you psychic, hcn?

    Friday, 21 December, 2007
    HCN said…
    Sadly, I am not psychic.

    Brave Sir Dullman is just too predictable.

  21. GaleG Says:

    I don’t understand or want to be part of all your hatred. Ciao.

  22. gimpy Says:

    GaleG, this isn’t hatred. It’s just a warning that Dana Ullman is not the most reliable of individuals. When he is told that he is wrong and shown exactly why he is wrong he vanished only to spring up a week later on another forum making the exact same point that he has been told is wrong so many times before. Frankly he is an embarresment

  23. Humber Says:

    GaleG,
    Did you read the analysis, and understand why this casts serious doubts? Skeptics have valid objections that go beyond gainsaying, or that can be assuaged by evidence of good intentions.
    Ullman and others are specifically targets of sarcasm because they are charlatans. Like Uri Geller, they are repeatedly and unequivocally exposed, yet return unbowed. That is the reason for the vitriol, and not hatred of those with different opinions.

  24. GaleG Says:

    I didn’t realize that you had had such a go at that report. The link that nash sent me to was pretty nasty.

    I am beginning to fear that no study would ever satisfy any of you.

    I am wondering why woodchopper said to goodscience and woowooscience at

    http://goodscience.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/homeopathy-and-frogs/#comments

    “Now the Chest paper that you published on your blog is interesting and appeared to demonstrate a clear effect. If homeopaths are going to cite papers, they really should cite that ones that actually support their arguments rather than ones like this one which just make a whole lot of fuss about very little.”

  25. GaleG Says:

    Woodchopper is referring in his/her last statement to the study under discussion
    on the blog about frogs….NOT the chest paper. He is giving support to the Chest paper.

  26. gimpy Says:

    GaleG, your citation of woodchopper as supporting the Chest paper is a good illustration of just how infuriating it is when dealing with homeopaths and their supporters. You are not actually adressing the criticisms of the paper that were provided in the links, instead you seek to validate your support by citing somebody else’s support. That is a very poor way of arguing. Oh and I am pretty sure that woodchopper endorses most if not all of the criticisms.

  27. Humber Says:

    GaleG, You wrote:
    I am beginning to fear that no study would ever satisfy any of you”

    Believe it or not, some studies raise an eyebrow and get me thinking that there may be something new to consider, something interesting. However,I am almost always disappointed because investigation yields very bad science or outright fraud. The criticisms made of this particular study are just.
    Some may see science as a hard taskmaster, but that is how the chaff is separated from the wheat.

  28. GaleG Says:

    Andrew, on the Organon site responded to my query. Would this accurately reflect most of you? If so, then maybe we should “cut the crap” so to speak, not try to make the homeopaths jump through hoops, and be done with it.

    “But I am beginning to wonder whether there will ever be a study that would prove to any of you that there is something effective in homeopathy.”

    Andres:

    One study? Not a chance. Even if it’s perfectly conducted, a single study showing an effect at the p<0.05 proves nothing if there are 10 or more that don’t (and there are far more than that). That’s what you’d expect to see by chance.

    If on the other hand there were a great many good studies that showed an effect, I’d still doubt it, just because it directly contradicts almost everything else we know about the universe. The odds against homeopathy working, based on the information I have, are so high that even with a p value of 0.00000001 I’d still say it’s a long shot. Bayes’ theorem and all that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. A paper won’t cut it — it would be the easiest thing in the world to invent a bunch of patients and write it up. The odds of a homeopath doing that compared to the odds that water can remember long-gone solutes even after a vigorous shaking are pretty well conclusive as far as I’m concerned. I’d need something I could actually watch to make me believe something that unlikely.

    In any case, most studies of homeopathy done nowadays are badly done by people with obvious vested interests in the results (and those that aren’t never seem to show any effect). Generally I assume the studies are either negative or bad and dismiss them without reading them. I like to think I have an open mind, but I have to draw a line somewhere. Homeopathy has had its chance with me and I think my time would be better spent reading other things.

    Bottom line? No, I don’t think there ever will be “a study that would prove to [me] that there is something effective in homeopathy”, but that’s mostly just because there isn’t anything effective in it (literally, for anything past 12C).

    Comment by Andrew — February 5, 2008 @ 5:24 pm

  29. Humber Says:

    GaleG,
    Perhaps Andrew was rather strident, but I would concur with a lot of what he says. One good study would not be enough to overturn centuries of scientific endeavour, but an inexplicable result should stimulate repeated studies that may confirm the original. Confirmation of extraordinary results is required on both sides of the fence.

    I would disagree that a study demonstrating such a result would necessarily require the complete rejection of all that is currently understood. However, a result is a result, and if the trail is tight, then carping afterwards would be seen by all honest scientists as just that.

    Perhaps the question should not be why are skeptics denying the trials, but why is alternative science so bad?
    I think that the answer is due to inadequate skepticism, curiosity and discipline. In such circumstances it is easy for wishful thinking to corrupt even well-intended trials.

    One solution to this impasse would be for alternative science to involve skeptics in the process. This way, costly errors could be found before the trials rather than afterwards, and hopefully eliminate cheating or bias.
    Science is in someways rather naive because it does not expect it s practitioners to cheat. I am afraid that alternative science has a history of abusing this trust. Skeptics would find it hard to gainsay their own trails!

    Andrew’s remark about drawing a line is apposite. Time and money are always in short supply, so it is necessary that an avenue of research be seen as promising before a lot of time is invested.

    I would agree with Andrew that Homeopathy has been given many opportunities to offer this promise, and that repeated failure and denial of it, has only brought it further into disrepute.

    I take it from your reply “I didn’t realize that you had had such a go at that report”, that you had not taken a look at the criticisms of that trail?

    “Having a go at” is rather pejorative. To find flaws in a trial requires good knowledge of many disciplines, and I often see remarks made by those more knowledgeable than I that would have escaped me. Perhaps such a remark may concern statistics, and I may agree, but if not, I can always turn to a text book to check if it is true, and that takes effort. I am afraid that other than accepting the word of authority, there is no other means.

    Perhaps the solution is to conduct simple trails that are more readily open to inspection and comprehension by all.

  30. hcn57 Says:

    Dana Ullman is more of a source of amusement rather than hatred. I believe the strongest thing I have said to him was “Brave Sir Dana you are a clueless git.”

    He has tried to tell us water has memory just like CD-roms!

    Please, Gale… go to your library. Check out the book by Dr. Bausell. Also, if your library (like ours) still uses the Dewey Decimal system, go browse the books in the 540 number range.

    I know you have said things like “the Secret” and homeopathy make you happy. For me, hanging out in libraries makes me happy. I enjoy reading the magazines there, checking out books on subjects ranging from gardening, crafts to neurology and running into my neighbors.

  31. GaleG Says:

    I love libraries as well!!

    I love poetry as well…I have a blog about poetry, spiritual stuff and a little about homeopathy and other things.. I am a mystic and meta-physician, so science and math don’t mean as much to me…

    http://aspirationofthesoul.wordpress.com/

  32. Nash Says:

    GaleG

    Try Maths. Maths lecturers tell me that maths is the only subject that is true.

    20 years ago I had a car crash and died in the ambulance and was revived. I know this because the doctor told me. All I can remember is the tree coming towards my car, the bang and then waking up in hospital. Death holds no fear for me because I know it is nothing. There’s no lights, family, pets, friends. Just nohing and it doesn’t hurt. I now apprecriate life more as a result.

    The nice thing about science is that it is open. All it takes is a bit of effort on your side. But alt-medicine is not open. A good example is Peter Chappells sound files. Only he has the knowledge and he is keeping it secret. If a piano falls on him today then this knowledge will be lost and mankind will be the poorer. Contrast his attitude to Alexaner Fleming who never really personally benefited from his discovery of penicillin. Pasteur was motivated by the loss of his children and his determination that others should not have the same loss.

  33. phayes Says:

    @Humber “Perhaps Andrew was rather strident… I would disagree that a study demonstrating such a result would necessarily require the complete rejection of all that is currently understood.”

    On the contrary: if anything, Andrew wasn’t strident enough and it is nigh on tautological that such a “study demonstrating such a result” wouldn’t “require the complete rejection of all that is currently understood”. Why is homeopathy (probably the most ugly, stupid and blatantly wrong ‘theory’ I have ever come across) being studied at all?

  34. nash Says:

    I was talking to one of my friends who is a GP at the weekend.

    He had a few comments about alt-medicine.

    The first was that a lot of it was being pushed on the NHS by Prince Charles. A lot of the PCT directors are not medically qualified so anything simple and seeming cheap appeals. He said he has an open mind, but you have to be seen to have one and any intelligent questions you have are pounced on as you not having an open mind so you should accept uncritically any bollocks you are fed.

    A few years ago one of his collegues was taken on a tour of the Royal Hoe hospital in London. He said her main impression was how filthy it was. If their surgery got that dirty they would fire the practice manager.

    Another point he made was the workload that doctors had. Not only seeing patients, but the paperwork and keeping up with developments. The six patients he has to see in an hour is a govt target, not one set by medical need.
    With medically qualified hoes he can see the attraction, you only see 1 patient an hour, minimal paperwork and nobody checks on it anyway, if the patient is realy ill you shunt them out to someone to deal with, and you get the same pay.

    He also pointed out that a lot of hoes practice on their family members and effectively deny choice to them. If a doctor practices on his own family they will be struck off. Doctors have to follow an ethical code (which is not an optional module) and practicing on your own family is a big no no.

  35. Humber Says:

    Phayes,
    A positive trial for homeopathy need not be at odds with current knowledge, nor demonstrate that homeopathic principles are correct. At the human level, and evolved naif vitalism could be responsible for greater patient reaction than could be expected from culturally imprinted expectation.

    Even if the <i<extreme case of imprinting of water(in any form )were possible, would that not require some changes in material science rather than a complete overhaul?

    Homeopathy is being considered as heuristically viable because telling those with spiritual leanings that they are simply ignorant is counterproductive.

  36. Humber Says:

    Nash wrote:
    “Contrast his attitude to Alexaner Fleming who never really personally benefited from his discovery of penicillin”

    Well, he rejected it as an in-vivo antibiotic. It was Howard Florey who later picked up Fleming’s nomograph on penecillin and developed it.

  37. bill Says:

    Humber

    “At the human level, and evolved naif vitalism could be responsible for greater patient reaction than could be expected from culturally imprinted expectation.”

    That is gobbledy gook. Can you re-phrase that in plain English?

  38. auquai Says:

    @Nash

    “Maths lecturers tell me that maths is the only subject that is true.”

    Well they would, wouldn’t they? Can they prove this using maths?

  39. Humber Says:

    Bill,
    Yes, but entirely fluent gobbledy gook.
    Children often accept what is given too them as being good for them. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15335462

    When abstract ideas such as good/bad evolved, it would have
    been necessary to build upon existing responses such as edible/inedible. It has to start somewhere.
    It is possible that homeopathy with its longer, more sympathetic approach, may better invoke this response in adults than would a GP.

    I think that you have said it yourself; homeopaths have their own way of determining what is true or not. Telling them for the nth time that the remedies are below Avogadro’s limit will have no effect- they simply don’t see that as relevant.

    If the response from skeptics is to remark “this would require a complete revision of known physics” serves only to reinforce their prejudice of scientific fundamentalism. Skeptiscm sometimes looks like that, even to me.

    Homeopaths are aware of the placebo effect, they certainly accept its presence in allopathic trials, but do not apply it to themselves, because they say that the witnessed results are beyond such explanation. Native vitalism is a putative answer to that claim, and if of marked effect, explains the practitioner’s assessment, avoiding the perhaps insulting counterclaim of confirmation bias.

    I do not give credence to any entanglement ideas, but allowing them as a heuristic starting point, means that homeopathy must provide the remainder or the hypothesis or come up with a trial that allows its existence to be demonstrated.

  40. Humber Says:

    Bill, I have tried to respond, but my post is not accepted.

    It was caught up in the spam filter. I think I’ve recovered it now. My apologies = gimpy

  41. observer Says:

    How can Science be right? When it discounts even God and Creation! Does the acceptance of the FACT that there is a GOD and that the Universe was Created by Him change everything we know about science? In other words does God fit within the scientific thinking and laws? One of the two must be right either science that was created by God is wrong or “scientists” are limited in their thinking (they have thick skulls;). On these grounds I don’t trust Science! It has its limits!! God created man and science! It is just that man with his limited thinking cannot grasp all of it!

    I think you all should read;

    Human Wisdom vs. God’s Wisdom
    http://www.apronus.com/theology/humanwisdom.htm

    and Pope John Paul’s 2nd, “Crossing The Threshold of Hope”, chapter titled,

    “PROOF”: IS IT STILL VALID?
    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/POPE/HopeBook/chap5.html

    I quiet like this bit here,

    I quote, “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps”

    “The “God-of-the-gaps argument” in modern usage
    A common argument is that the lack of scientific knowledge about an unexplained phenomenon does not mean that it is an act of God, but rather that scientific research has not yet found an answer.”

    So instead of quacking here all of you, put your wisdom to the test and find an answer. Lay your scientific golden egg, will you!

    I cite KJV text, 1 Corinthians 3:18-23
    “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.”

    “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.”

    “And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

    “Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;”

    “Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;”

    “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.”

    This is a very smart and devilish act. You demand high quality research, but you urge the governments not to support homeopathy financially etc..

    Then you reinforce EBM to destroy it and the whole of CAM, but did you know that:

    ““only about 15% of medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence” (BMJ Editorial)”

    You fall into your own trap!

    Homeopaths and CAM practitioners will take your criticism and use it constructively. It will only strengthen and NOT destroy it! Take my word for it! It has happened before and it will happen again!

    Did Hitler win the 2nd World War?
    I wish you good luck!
    There are more people than you think who will fight back!
    Homeopathy produces results on humans, and this is what counts! A person who suffered all their life gets relief and do you think he will fall for your deceit? I bet NOT!

    Guys, there is a lot of confusion created by classical homeopaths as to the potency selection of the homeopathic remedy. There has been a misunderstanding among homeopaths about this issue, since no real research has been done in the past 200 years. However there is a Research team in India who have done a lot of research and so have solved the issue once and for all. Please take a look at these links for the explanation:

    Here is an extract from a book on “Advanced Homeopathy” by Dr Parimal Banerji:

    http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathyforums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6294&PN=1

    And a link to Dr Parimal Banerji’s site:

    http://www.drpbanerji.com/advanced_homeopathy.htm

  42. observer Says:

    You criticize that homeopathic studies are not blinded, but blinding is not critical to a successful study according to epidemiologists such as Dr Hennekens.
    Hennekens, CH. Buring, JE. “Epidemiology in medicine”. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins.

    Modern Medicine is NOT Evidence Based at all! In actual fact it is very unscientific!

    ““only about 15% of medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence” (BMJ Editorial)”

    I bet you wont publish my comments on this site. You publish only the criticisms of homeopathy! This latest crusade against homeopathy worldwide is organized by mafia networks that sustain the so called “modern medicine”.

  43. Nash Says:

    Which god are you referring to? Zeus, Osiris or Brahman?

  44. Observer Says:

    Some recent published paper,

    INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ONCOLOGY 23: 975-982, 2003
    975

    “Ruta 6 selectively induces cell death in brain cancer cells but
    proliferation in normal peripheral blood lymphocytes:
    A novel treatment for human brain cancer”

    http://www.pbhrfindia.org/images/stories/pdf/ruta6.pdf

    One thing to remember:
    Blinding is not critical to a successful study according to epidemiologists such as Dr Hennekens.

    Hennekens, CH. Buring, JE. “Epidemiology in medicine”. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins.

  45. Observer Says:

    A quotation worth citing,


    Radhakrishnan, the Indian Philosopher writes “We deny a thing because it is inconsistent with what we believe”

  46. Nash Says:

    Observer re 45

    I think this applies especially to you.

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