Jeni Barnett’s MMR scaremongering – the role of homeopathy *update*
Posted by gimpy on February 7, 2009
As you may be aware there has been a bit of bother in the bad science blogosphere after lawyers for LBC radio demanded that Ben Goldacre remove a lengthy excerpt of the Jeni Barnett show posted as an example of media irresponsibility over the health issues arising from MMR scaremongering. Despite taking the clip down the threat of legal action still hangs over Goldacre’s coiffured curls and he has posted a spirited defence of his actions on his blog. Despite the attempts of LBC lawyers to protect their copyright, coincidientally at the same time Jeni Barnett posted a couple of rather ungracious responses on her blog, the excerpt in question has been posted to wikileaks and a transcript of the show is now available online (links, along with other blogs covering this, at the end of this post – the Streisand effect in action).
There is much to discuss with respect to this post, the legalities of copyright, there is the responsibility of broadcasters to public health, the willingness in which ignorant individuals issue uninformed opinion in the public sphere, the collision between old media attitudes and new media realities, and the complicity of the media in the falling MMR vaccination rate amongst others. These issues are being covered by other blogs and in the comments to Goldacre’s posts so I will focus on a particular vice of mine. Homeopathy. While bloggers and others are justifiably getting angry at Jeni Barnett and the media over this issue I think it is important to look at professions that feed and grow strong on such public emanations of ignorance and doubt.
7 minutes into part 2 of the broadcast, Tracey, a homeopath, calls – this is a transcript of the conversation (inaccurate transcription may have occured)
TIMESTAMP 7:00
Tracy (T): Hi Jeni. Yes, I’d like to totally agree with you the fact that immunisation is totally unnecessary, especially in this day and age when hygiene has changed so much since how it used to be.
I have 4 children. The oldest being 12, the youngest being 3. [Infant noises.] You can probably hear in the background right now.
Jeni Barnett: Don’t talk to me, just talk to her for a second.
Tracy: [Soothes child.] My eldest is 12, my youngest is 3, none of them have ever been vaccinated, immunised. And they’re all very healthy children. They don’t have any auto-immune diseases. They don’t suffer asthma, eczema. I just think [vaccination] is total abuse of the immune system.
TIMESTAMP 8:00
JB: Now, now, now. I want to do this slowly because you’re going to have people phoning in saying you’re utterly irresponsible.
12 years ago when you had your first baby, why did you not have them inoculated?
Tracy: It started off, I went on a short course about, it was a choice, making a choice about vaccination. And it was run by a homeopath.
JB: But why did you go on that course in the first place?
Tracy: Because I had a feeling inside, I inherently knew, that it must be wrong to be putting toxins and poisonous material into a young baby’s body.
JB: Right.
Tracy: It’s as simple as that. Mercury, formaldehyde, you know – live viruses that are cured (?) in monkeys’ kidneys. How can that be right for your child?
JB: Now, are you, by any stretch of the imagination, described as a crank by your friends?
Tracy: No. They all know me too well now.
JB: So, when you made that decision, and when I made that decision 22 years ago, it is about the loneliest decision you’re ever going to make.
Tracy: Oh, absolutely! Even your family, you’ll have people standing up saying,
TIMESTAMP 9:00
“Why? Aren’t you being irresponsible?”. You’ve got the doctors, you’ve got the health authorities…You know you’ve just got to take the bull by the horns and confront that on a daily basis.
People at the school would frown upon me as if my child was in some way was gonna infect their child by not being vaccinated.
But I’m a very strong-willed person anyway. And from what I learned from my first son being born I decided, yeah, I want to take this further, and investigated it a bit more and went on to college and trained to become a homeopath.
JB: Really?
Tracy: Yes. It all came from initially just thinking, “Do I want to so this?” and it all started with that very first thought. And you know what? The more you investigate it, the more you find out about it. And anyone, right now, this moment in time can go on the internet, they can go on sites. They can find out the dangers of vaccination and make their own informed decision.
I’m not saying that for everybody it’s going to be as straightforward and as straight cut as I was able to make that decision myself. But I just knew, from the beginning, that it was the wrong thing to do.
TIMESTAMP 10:00
JB: This is fascinating.
Tracy, let me ask you this. When measles-if there’s a case of measles at the kids’ school, or if there’s a case of mumps or chickenpox-what do you do?
Tracy: I say, “Great! Come on kids – let’s go get it”. Because
children get childhood diseases for a reason. It’s to boost their immune system so that later on in life when they come into contact with those diseases, it doesn’t affect them so severely. And that is why they are called childhood diseases.
The only reason children get really, really ill and perhaps, you know, suffer serious side-effects are if:
a) their immune system is not strong enough to fight off the virus, or b) they are being suppressed by drugs or in some other way. Suppressant drugs or given too much antibiotics or…
JB: Now, now, you see, Tracy. People will hear what you’re saying and they’ll say,
TIMESTAMP 11:00
“It’s all right for you”. As you’ve (quite rightly) said, your
kids-Thank God, touch wood and I’m touching it as we speak-they have run through this. But you are saying it is an individual decision, aren’t you?
Tracy: Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I would never, even in my job, I would never say to people, “You mustn’t do that”. I would give them the facts and say, “This is what I’ve come across. Go on these websites-and there are thousands out there-do your own investigations, don’t take my word for it. You know, everything I say, it may be my truth, it may not be yours. But you must investigate it yourself and don’t take the easy way out”.
I’ve had doctors ringing me at home. I’ve had Health Visitors having angry conversations with me. And now, what I say to those people-whose minds I’m not going to change anyway-that’s fine-I just say, “That’s my choice I’m making and I am making an informed decision”. And every parent has the right to make an informed decision. Unfortunately, not many people do want to do that.
JB: Tracy, I think that with you inspiring them they may jolly well want to after that.
Fantastic. 2:15 and [going to travel segment].
Martin over at Layscience has already fisked this excerpt and his anger at its nonsense is palpable. It is clear that Tracy is ignorant and uninformed about vaccination and is potentially putting her children at risk. However, it is not this that concerns me most. It is the quote about how Tracey came to her conclusions ‘It started off, I went on a short course about, it was a choice, making a choice about vaccination. And it was run by a homeopath.‘. It was run by a homeopath. I have documented on many occasions the inanities, inadequacies and insanities of the homeopathic profession and it is clear they have a fundamental opposition to vaccination, unless it is vaccination using homeopathic concentrations. This opposition to scientific theories of medicine, derogatorily referred to as allopathy – a description Jeni Barnett uses, has been ingrained within the writings and doctrines of homeopathy ever since its foundation by Samuel Hahnemann:
Therefore disease (that does not come within the province of manual surgery) considered, as it is by the allopathists, as a thing separate from the living whole, from the organism and its animating vital force, and hidden in the interior, be it ever so subtle a character, is an absurdity, that could only be imagined by minds of a materialistic stamp, and has for thousands of years given to the prevailing system of medicine all those pernicious impulses that have made it a truly mischievous [non-healing] art.
Verse 13. Organon 6th Edition
Lest you think that modern day homeopathy views such writings as being the product of their times and of little relevance to the modern work then read again the above transcript with its active campaign against vaccination. It is also not hard to find statements online such as this from Cassandra Marks:
A reader has asked whether homeopathic remedies can be used in place of immunisations [...] if your child has a simple illness without any complications this is much better for them than having an injection with all the well documented risks that that entails.
Cassandra even recommends anti-vaccine books and states they are available at homeopathic pharmacies. Be assured that modern day homeopathy still defines itself in opposition to ‘allopathy’ and actively seeks to undermine the best modern healthcare has to offer.
Jeni Barnett may be irresponsible and unapologetic but she is acting within her rights, and apparently within OFCOM guidelines, which are firm on subjects such as sex, drugs and the occult but not public health. Jeni Barnett is not a public health expert and nor does she pretend to be or treat patients, she is merely an ignorant broadcaster. Homeopaths on the other hand do believe they are public health experts and do treat patients. The opinions of Jeni Barnett will undoubtedly increase the anxiety of many members of the public when it comes to vaccination, but the harm does not lie in this alone. Barnett may believe she is just sharing her opinions with her listeners and giving a forum for a spectrum of views but she fails to realise or fails to care that the mistrust and disinformation broadcast across the radio waves by LBC is being absorbed by homeopaths, packaged into a bitter narrative of fear and mistrust of science based medicine, and sweetened with a sympathetic ear and a sugar pill. Homeopaths view such voices in the media as reinforcing their beliefs and giving them more confidence in their practices. They are active disseminators of ignorant opinion and underminers of evidence and this itself brings up further issues about their place in society. When homeopathy is given official support whether through the approval of degree courses, NHS funding or government recommendations their sugar pills act as a trojan horse, carrying their dark heart into the public consciousness and actively contributing to declines in public health. And should you want an illustration of just how damaging scaremongering over MMR can be then this BBC news report is essential reading, and I leave you with this graph.
Measles cases
*Update*
I’m a bit slow today, I didn’t realise that Jeni Barnett is quite the fan of homeopathy. This does not surprise me and I wonder how influential her homeopath has been in forming her opinions. Clearly influential enough for Jeni to sign the homeopathy worked for me campaign….
Links to wikileaks and blogs
(shamelessly nicked from badscience)
Transcript
Part 1. Frank. Jeni Barnett MMR show – full transcript
http://scienceblogs.com/sciencepunk/2009/02/jeni_barnett_mmr_show_-_full_t.php
Part 2. Martin of The Lay Scientist. The Barnett Transcript –
http://www.layscience.net/node/485
Part 3 Podblack Jeni Barnett On LBC 97.3FM UK Radio – vs John From Epsom
Part 4 Rachel Dunlop of Sceptics’ Book
This section covers ~ 19 to 24 mins . To see the preceding section
head topodblack.com. For the audio head to my YouTube channel.
http://scepticsbook.com/2009/02/06/further-to-the-transcript-of-jeni-barnetts-diatribe-on-lbc-937fm/
Part 5 Quackometer
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/02/jeni-barnett-mmr-rant-transcript-with.html
Part 6 Holfordwatch Jeni Barnett and the Phone Call with Yasmin on the LBC MMR Segment
Audio Clip
http://www.layscience.net/node/484
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Bad_Science:_Jeni_Barnett_MMR_and_vaccination_slot_on_LBC_radio%2C_2009
http://www.thatsfuckingstupid.com/index.php/2009/02/dont-tell-anyone/
Blogs
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/05/scientist-who-critic.html
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=43020&c=1
http://www.mediawatchwatch.org.uk/2009/02/06/bad-science-v-bad-lawyers/
http://blog.dave.org.uk/2009/02/the-controversy-that-wont-die.html
http://theplummetonions.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/extremely-bad-science/
http://teekblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/goldacre-threatened-with-legal-action.html
http://scatter-gum.blogspot.com/2009/02/jeni-barnett-is-fucking-idiot.html
http://mycolleaguesareidiots.com/archive/2009/02/06/401.aspx
http://plashingvole.blogspot.com/2009/02/jeni-barnett-is-ill-informed-loon-and.html
http://xrrf.blogspot.com/2009/02/global-radio-menaces-ben-goldacre.html
http://www.adambowie.com/weblog/archive/002659.html
Dr Crippen of NHS BlogDoc: Jeni Barnett and LBC start the clean-up operation
Frank Swain of Science Punk: LBC sic lawyers on Ben Goldacre over criticism of MMR show
SJ Cockell of Fuzzier Logic: MMR scaremongerer sicks the legal dogs on Ben Goldacre
Podblack of Podblack Cat: Ben Goldacre – Will Not, Should Not, Be Silenced On Jeni Barnett.
jdc of jdc325: MMR Scaremongering From Jeni Barnett: LBC Use Legal Chill Tactics. Ugh.
Political Scientist: URGENT: The Joy of Law
Martin of The Lay Scientist: Jeni Barnett on MMR – The Complete Show.
Jason Brown of A Drunken Madman: More medical mendacity.
ES Armstrong of Scattergum: Jeni Barnett is an idiot.
Dr*T of Thinking is Dangerous: Is there a proper media lawyer in the house? Your country needs YOU.
Common Sense has updated the Measles graph for England and Wales.
Dr Rachie of The Sceptics’ Book: What are LBC and Jeni Barnett afraid of?
Press Gazette: LBC in legal warning to Ben Goldacre over MMR blog post
Anthony Cox of Black Triangle: MMR and legal threats and http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=1894″>The Today Programme’s irresponsible MMR interview
Quackometer: Jeni Barnett and Irresponsible Broadcasting
MacSpider of Spider Comment: Jeni Barnett, LBC, stupidity and threats
Londonist: MMR, For Some Reason, Still Controversial
Michael Grayer of Non-Toxic: Many Many Rants… and not much evidence.
[BPSDB]
Jeni Barnett and the LBC Radio MMR Vaccine Segment: Updated with links of blog coverage « Holford Watch: Patrick Holford, nutritionism and bad science said
[...] on where some of the blame for Jeni Barnett’s remarkable antivax rhetoric comes from: Jeni Barnett’s MMR scaremongering – the role of homeopathy. I will focus on a particular vice of mine. Homeopathy. While bloggers and others are justifiably [...]
Matt Wardman said
Thanks for the coverage. I don’t have time to do a Spartacus today.
Mojo said
Homoeopaths, of course, claim that they’re not opposed to proper medicine, while also routinely opposing the use of vaccines, claiming that medicine only treats the symptoms, “suppresses” symptoms so as to make the condition worse, etc.
This same attitude comes out in Jeni’s comments to “Geraldine in Hampstead” (between minutes 2 & 3 of “Clip 5″ on the Sciencepunk transcript page):
“GH: – but alongside regular medicine. And it-
JB: Yes that’s right and I think that it has to be complementary…”
however, less than a minute beforehand Jeni had said: “I don’t come from medicine, you do, I don’t like anything to do with allopathic medicine”.
Some Rebuttals to Jeni Barnett’s Canards in Her LBC Radio MMR Segment « Holford Watch: Patrick Holford, nutritionism and bad science said
[...] has posted on some of the issues of homeopathy that Jeni Barnett raised in her faux-naif fashion. Dr Peter Fisher, representative for [...]
jaycueaitch said
This shit just isn’t going away. Ironic thing is, Barnett mentions her kid having a dodgy immune system. He needs the rest of the population to be immune so epidemics don’t take hold. Ironically, Barnett’s ignorant spoutings have endangered him.
Jeni Barnett, antivaxer, bites off more than she can chew « Lambda Delta: Tony Sidaway’s blog said
[...] The response from the blogosphere has been prompt and satisfying. There have been umpteen blog entries taking up Ben’s challenge. The issue has been taken up by the renowned scourge of quackery, David Colquhoun, in an entry on his “Improbable Science” blog. Gimpy has not only responded to Barnett’s feckless maunderings, he also helpfully displays a list of other responses. [...]
anon said
Well how typical and vitrioloic.
They are active disseminators of ignorant opinion and underminers of evidence and this itself brings up further issues about their place in society. When homeopathy is given official support whether through the approval of degree courses, NHS funding or government recommendations their sugar pills act as a trojan horse, carrying their dark heart into the public consciousness and actively contributing to declines in public health.
For a start it would seem that what the “dark hearted homeopath” was saying was. Make your own mind up, go any seek out the available information and then decide. But according to you, anyone who holds the view that opposes the view that vaccinations are both safe and effective is a threat to the nations health. What is clear is that the information presented does not reassure those who are willing to look hard.
http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html
As start, and this is in no way being presented as definitive piece of research, this shows that more needs to be done to compare the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated children. A place to also loopk is the Amish in America who have an incredibly in not non existence level of autism in their unvaccinated population.
And then the stance that is taken by the medical profession when a family have a child who recieved their vaccination and then suddenly, cooincidentally developes a neurological condition, after the febrile convulsions etc. This is both heard heart and takes the paternalistic stance of “of course we understand how it must look but believe us when we say it had nothing to do with the tube of noxious chemicals we injected into your child”.
Fortunately people are ignoring your prejudiced and distorted opinion and choosing to take responsibility for their own and thier childrens health.
gimpy said
Anon, the facts of the matter are there is no evidence linking MMR, nor vaccinations in general, with autism. Nor is there evidence that the risks associated wtih vaccines are greater than the risks associated with not vaccinating. Generation Rescue have also come in for considerable criticism and cannot be regarded as a legitimate source of information.
In addition to all this it was reported in the Sunday Times today that Andrew Wakefield may have faked his data in the initial Lancet paper.
It is about time this morass of misinformation was drained.
Any homeopath who recommends against vaccination or presents data suggesting that the dangers are understated is clearly part of the problem as their position is not supported by the evidence.
tony said
Insidious medicine that no evidenc of the killer of health could be found, ha?
Too many babies – or too much statistical evidence to spring up before the eyes to say something here is basically wrong!
The following is a quote from a New Jersy parents united to defend their right to decide over their children’s treatments.
“Middleton said the vaccination mandates are not about children’s health.
“I believe the government and big pharmacies are in bed together,” Middleton said, adding that if the state cared about children’s health it would demand “green vaccines” that do not contain neurotoxins and carcinogens such as thimerosal, formaldehyde, mercury and aluminum.
Assemblywoman Charlotte Vandervalk (R District-39), the primary sponsor of the conscientious objection bill, said federal law exempts vaccine manufacturers from liability. She said the federal government compensates those parents who can establish a firm timeline between a vaccination and a resulting injury or death and has paid $910 million toward vaccination-damaged children. She said as of Oct. 1, the federal government had 988 vaccination-related deaths on file.
Now it is dubious that vaccinations have abated smallpox and the rest of the diseases, since it is a known fact amongs biologists and MD’s who have eyes, to observe that the strong decline of these diseases happened before vaccinations were introduced!
This particular lie that the decline is due to vaccinations gave the pharmaceuticals the license to damage the health of already billions babies (today adults) all over the world.. As Autism is the disease of the ninties onwards. But what with allergies, respiratory and gastric problems, ticks, ear infections, you name it that is so spread in modern times.
For some reason I am certain that the Big-Farma CE’s see that their offspring are not vaccinated.
Just google vaccination scandals and you will come along some scientific proven data that will make you stay well away from vaccinations.
As a practitioner I can tell the difference between a recently vaccinated child and unvaccinated child. The eyes are covered with a glassy kind of veil about a month or more after all vaccines. I know many children who have not been vaccinated, it is a pleasure to interact with them.
gimpy said
Brilliant, you just keep handing me those nails and I’ll hammer them home. You do realise you are only reinforcing my arguments that homeopaths are deranged and dangerous?
notspock said
(a caring state should) “demand “green vaccines” that do not contain neurotoxins and carcinogens such as thimerosal, formaldehyde, mercury and aluminum ”
what … like MMR !
tony said
Yes Yes Gimpy,
We are crazy and dangerous to society, and so are Doctors MD’s whose children were mamed for life (some of them now adults) advocate against vaccinations as a rule and have puclished well documented papers, some of them quote scientists such as Prof Hillman who worked in the labs of Merck when producing the Polio vaccine – the joke in the labs was when the first batch of vaccines was sent to the then USSR, the russians that will get this vaccine will never win the gold medals in the Olimpics again – and see what happened they were right, and who won this time, mainly countries where the Government cannot or would not afford vaccinations! China for example won 24 gold medals, while the US after generations of investments in sports came second with 20 gold medals and Britain with 12.
It is a known fact among scientists who investigated the field that the scale of epidemics declined before the vaccinations were introduced. The vaccinations did not cure anything.On the contrary they have contributed to the dire state of health and quality of life, the general populations are experiencing, that includes the state of minds and emotional and neurological illnesses as well as physical disturbances.
As in starving Africa, already exposed to some of the “advanced” vaccines – not to mention antibiotics which can be purchased openly in food markets, as in the West are bound to get the worst viral epidemics such as Aids and the worst conditions of vascular diseases, i.e CVA’s and the likes, because of a downfall in the human body’s resilience and immunne systems.
The cause is generations of religious vaccinations, of which the chemicals like formaldhyde, alluminum, thimeosal, acetone, change structure of vital cells (in the brain too) and that goes down the generations with the generations decline in strength i.e., from allergies to diabetes, gastric and respiratory diseases, etc.
The society’s that will be saved will be those in the with access to real food (not the processed junk). Those who will have less chemicals in their bodies, will survive, and produce healthy generations.
HCN said
Tony lied with “It is a known fact among scientists who investigated the field that the scale of epidemics declined before the vaccinations were introduced.”
Right… why do you say such obvious falsehoods when the data is so readily available? From my text file I created from:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf …
Disease: Measles in the USA
Year__Cases____Deaths
1961__423,919__434
1962__481,530__408
1963__385,156__364
(^^ first vaccine licensed)
1964__458,083__421
1965__261,905__276
1966__204,136__261
1967___62,705___81
1968___22,231___24
1969___25,826___41
1970___47,351___90
(^^^ MMR licensed)
1972___32,275___24
1973___26,690___23
1974___22,690___20
1975___24,374___20
1976___41,126___12
1977___57,245___15
1978___26,871___11
(^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
1979___13,597____6
1980___13,506___11
1981____2,124____2
Now look at the numbers for 1964, is it higher or lower than 1962 and 1961?
I believe this is adequately covered here:
http://jabsloonies.blogspot.com/2009/03/lies-misrepresentation-and-abuse.html
HCN said
Tony said “It is a known fact among scientists who investigated the field that the scale of epidemics declined before the vaccinations were introduced.”
Liar.
http://jabsloonies.blogspot.com/2009/03/lies-misrepresentation-and-abuse.html
tony said
HCN
You are right of course concerning Cot Death – they did happen within zero to six month after birth when a good number of vaccinations is given in this period, and Cot Death was connected to these early vaccines, not the MMR vaccine!
notspock said
sorry to all but tony…
but lets get this straight.
A nations health can be judged on the number of olympic medals.
“less chemicals in their bodies”= “healthy generations”
Ever heard of East Germany?
As for vaccines and epidemics, you arent going to start on about scarlet fever again are you? I had an enjoyable few minutes finding out its basically down to a sore throat. Better general living conditions, less coughing on each other, and antibiotics, and its not a problem.
And to top it all vascular diseases.
Go from sweden (1950s and 1990s if you like) to italy, via scotland if you like, and tell me vascular disease is down to vaccines and antibiotics (rather than the well known risks). I hope no-one wants to tell africans that.
HCN said
Prove it.
Show me the actual scientific studies that I can get at a local medical school library.
Because (and it is late now, or I’d find them) the stuff I have seen is that SIDS is going down due to both vaccination for pertussis and Hib, and the “back to sleep” campaign.
anon said
Ah yeys wikipedia, that bastion of open uprejudice information
anon said
So what studies have been carried out that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated? As surely this should be the only true way to come to a conclusion that they are safe and effective.
gimpy said
Anon, I linked to wikipedia because it was the easiest way of collating links. Now tell me how the criticism is flawed.
Also, your second comment betrays a lack of knowledge of how vaccine efficacy is tested.
HCN said
Silly, Anon… that idiotic Generation Rescue unscientific PHONE survey showed that those that were undervaccinated had a higher risk of autism.
If you have real evidence that there is a higher risk from the MMR vaccine versus actually getting measles, mumps or rubella please present it. It has to be a real paper in a real medical journal (not something like Medical Hypothesis, or a link to a random website, especially one like Generation Rescue which has an agenda, or NVIC which has a tab link to lawyers for hire).
AndyD said
The “cause and effect” arguments astound me. They’re basically saying “My kids aren’t vaccinated and they’re healthy and some kids who were vaccinated are sick so vaccinations are bad.” – are these people serious?
I know a guy who has been driving for thirty years and refuses to wear a seat belt. He’s alive and healthy. Local news reports have recently told the story of people who died in car accidents, despite wearing their seat belts. This is surely proof that seat belts are dangerous – isn’t it?
gimpy said
HCN, Anon is Paul Hudson of The Leaf Foundation, a homeopath organisation that believes “Homeopathy is not in our view a complementary therapy. It is by definition an alternative approach“. This further supports my point about homeopaths being a danger and does suggest Mr Hudson has considerable gall in calling my arguments “prejudiced and distorted”.
Mojo said
“Even when Hahnemann’s ideas may at times seem contentious, we have discovered through perseverance and application that his view is always correct”
Good grief.
gimpy said
Mojo, it’s fascinating that I can make apparently outlandish (to the unaware) arguments against homeopathy and then have them confirmed by homeopaths themselves in the comments to my blog.
simone said
AndiD (No. 13) The seatbelt example is interesting, but not so relevant as it contains no chemicals (preservatives in the form of either formaldehyde, aceton derivatives, aluminum of thimerosal or mercury.
parents are not familiar with the content, nor are the nurses and even doctors. Many MDws in the US have refrained from vaccinating because of what they experienced with their own children – one too many.
I know a few children of homeopaths who are very healthy. It is a pleasure to look at them and interact with them. they are really terrific.
anon said
I feel quite flattered that you have taken the time and effort to find out who I am. Yes i am a homeopath and a qualified nurse. If you want my full CV I’d be happy to provide it.
carrying their dark heart into the public consciousness and actively contributing to declines in public health.
so what is not prejudiced and distorted in this view?
For those who didn’t read my post in its entirety I didn’t present the generaton rescue as definitive reseach, but it ws to raise the question of what studies have been done to compare vaccinated with unvaccinated? After all their methods mirrored that of the CDC.
And as for my stance on vaccination. I never give an opinion, if asked I take the view that I do with all treatments, and medicines. I allow people the opportunity to be adults and to find out for themselves and tell them not take one side of the argument.
HCN said
Gimpy said “HCN, Anon is Paul Hudson of The Leaf Foundation,”
Good to know. If he used Generation Rescue as definitive research he has no more expertise in science, random sampling, statistics than my son’s cat (as opposed to my daughter’s cat, who actually has some cognitive ability). Since he is a homeopath, his intelligence and honesty can also be compared to the cat.
Anyway, and explanation of the results of the idiotic Generation Rescue phone survey (it was really executed the same way as a marketing survey, not a scientific one) is here:
http://autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com/2007/09/simple-selection-bias-model-explains.html (it also links to other blog posts that take it apart).
And a list of all of the epidemiological studies versus the other (including Wakefield’s, with a big “retracted” across it) is here:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf
anon said
HCN you really should pay closer attention to what others write. And how many of the cited studies compare vaccinated with unvaccinated? If there are any i would be interestsded in reading them.
David Aaronovitch Calls for A Class Action Against Stupidity (Well, LBC Radio and Jeni Barnett, We’re Editorialising) « Holford Watch: Patrick Holford, nutritionism and bad science said
[...] Gimpy has pointed out: Jeni Barnett may be irresponsible and unapologetic but she is acting within her rights, and [...]
HCN said
Several out of the 25 compared the numbers of children who were vaccinated versus those that were not. Check the Japanese studies for after the time when measles vaccination became voluntary. The cases of autism still went up, as did measles.
Actually I think my son’s cat reads better than you.
HCN said
Simone said “Many MDws in the US have refrained from vaccinating because of what they experienced with their own children – one too many.”
You just make it up as you go along, don’t you? I am guessing that “MDws” means medical doctors, and in that case you are very wrong.
Here is a survey of doctors in the New York area:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552523 …”Pediatricians who were parents were just as likely as nonparent pediatricians to recommend the vaccine routinely for their patients. Importantly, pediatrician-parents demonstrated no “double standard”; at the time of the study, 88% of pediatricians’ own eligible children had been vaccinated against varicella.”
Fortunately the USA has fairly high immunization rates for MMR, though there have been sporadic outbreaks:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm
Simone continued “I know a few children of homeopaths who are very healthy. It is a pleasure to look at them and interact with them. they are really terrific.”
Oh, how sweet… another cute story. So what do you do if a young man in your practice presents with mumps, like as shown in this Canadian television spot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZPEUFsTu3E&f … what do you do? Give him some sugar pills and hopes it goes away?
tony said
Yes it is true tha MD’s in the US have talked against vaccinations as well as some Australian MD’s
The various videos and papers are widely open on the net if you google
Scandals of vaccines – MMR, Cot Death, Allergies, ADHD, respiratory diseases, violence in children and adolescents, etc. and any of these connected with vaccines you will get very wide range of scientific information concerning same.
HCN said
Tony said “The various videos and papers are widely open on the net if you google”
Ooooh, the University of Google! Wow, I am not impressed.
The MMR has been around since 1971 in the USA and several other countries. If you have any real evidence (that I can find in a journal at my local medical school library, not the University of Google) that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella please present it. Remember that one out of a thousand cases of measles cause severe reactions, from deafness, blindness, mental retardation and death.
Since Cot Death is typically defined as a sudden death in an infant before their first birthday, and the MMR is given only after a child’s first birthday, you are going to have to work very hard to find evidence that the MMR causes a death BEFORE it is given!
HCN said
Something you might be interested in:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23676290-details/London+suffering+from+shocking+rise+in+rare+'Victorian'+diseases/article.do
Jeni Barnett, Ben Goldacre, LBC and M’Learned Friends: Spartacus is Back | The Wardman Wire said
[...] (shamelessly nicked from badscience via Gimpy) [...]
Jeni Barnett, LBC and Global Radio, MMR Segment 7 Jan 2009 and the Ben Goldacre Coverage: Part 2 « Holford Watch: Patrick Holford, nutritionism and bad science said
[...] that is the central thing that LBC failed to consider before they let Jeni Barnett loose with her homeopath fuelled delusions. I join Ben Goldacre in calling for you to make on on air apology, “prominently and [...]
jaycueaitch said
Anon: There was a big Danish study (published in the New England Journal of Medicine) that showed no significant difference in autism rates between those who received the MMR vaccine and thise who did not. The unvaccinated had seemingly slightly higher rates but this was not statistically significant.
And your comment “would I be interested in reading it” says an awful lot about your attitude.
@Simone. So your homeopaths kids are in good health? I’m pleased to hear it but anecdotes prove nothing. TeenH has had every vaccine going including the MMR and is in excellent physical and mental health. Does this anecdote copnvince you that MMR is safe? If you accept anecdotal evidence then it should.
anon said
Thank you for that Jaycueaitch
Yes it is an interesting study. Unfortunately, apart from the MMR, it does not give any details of the childrens vaccination status. So doesn’t really test vaccinated against unvaccinated.
And i said i would be interested in reading, not would i be interested in reading. The two give a very different emphasis. I guess this would be a typo, unless of course you have been taking reading lesson from HCN’s son’s cat.
HCN said
Here you go, anon… you will now understand what has happened and you don’t even have to read (though you may still not be able to understand it):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#29128976
Basically (and this is for those who can read) it says that the main article linking the MMR (which has been used in the USA since 1971) to autism was based on lies (that means that Wakefield did not put true things in the paper).
Hope that helps you understand the problem… and in the mean time measles rates go up, and another child has died from measles on the continent. Wakefield is racking up a several cases of hospitalizations, disabilities and deaths due to his lies.
jaycueaitch said
Anon. It compared those who had received the MMR vaccine with those who had not. The antivaccination brigade has been saying that MMR causes autism. That study shows that it does not. End of.
anon said
As with all things it is important to try to see both sides. So HCN maybe your sons cat will enjoy reading Wakefields response to Mr Deers investigations and subsequent report.
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/deer-response.pdf
And i can’t get away from the need to have a full comparison of vaccinated and fully unvaccinated. As i am sure all the scientists amongst you are aware, you need to have a control group against which to make a comparison. Otherwise how can we know if vaccines are the true cause for the decline in diseases, and we can then know for sure that they can be eliminated from being a cause of neurological disorders. And Maybe the study could be broadened out to include other chronic conditions that are on the increase, asthma, dibetes, autoimmune problems etc.
jaycueaitch said
Anon. Look at the graph Gimpy posted. As MMR vaccination rates fall, measles cases rise. When MMR was introduced measles rates fell.
And this all has nothing to do with the fact that Wakefield made shit up for his “research”. He has a patent on a single vaccine for measles btw. You antivaxxers are always banging on about conflicts of interest, what do you reckon to that one?
paul said
Yes but without a control group how can we know it was the vaccine?
snowbird said
Could it be that Anon aka Paul Hudson and Simone are the same poster? Either that or they share the same inability to spell and utilize correct grammar. If they are different, this could go a long way to explain such muddled, inept thinking on the non-science side.
“Ah yeys wikipedia, that bastion of open uprejudice information”
In just this one “sentence” there are two words, one of them a mere three letters long, an improperly used comma, a mis-capitalized proper noun, and it ends without a period. This shows either a lack of intelligence, or just plain carelessness. In any case, it sure doesn’t inspire confidence in this posters “professional” abilities.
Paul (The Nasty One) said
#32 – it wasn’t me! Nevertheless, this new Paul has a reasonable question (assuming he really does want an answer and isn’t just being vexatious). I know the answer is obvious to the scientifically literate (and it is googleable), but even so I think you ought to answer it, jaycueaitch.
Chris said
Paul said “Yes but without a control group how can we know it was the vaccine?”
There are ethics issues with that type of study, and of course its usefulness after the vaccine has been in use since 1971 would be limited. For an explanation of the value of the epidemiological for health issues read Paul Offit’s book “Autism’s False Prophets.” For more information read:
http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=154
Chris said
A quote from the website I posted: “Another suggestion made was to have a study where children are placed into “no vaccination” and “vaccination” groups. This, of course, would be rejected out of hand by any Institutional Review Board because the risks of not vaccinating are well known and quite serious. On the other hand, the connection between vaccines and autism is tenuous at best. It would be unethical to expose adults to a known serious risk in order to test a weakly-supported (again, at best!) possible risk. In children, it would be unthinkable.”
podblack said
Brand-new interview with Ben! All the details, from his side.
http://www.skepticzone.tv.
tony said
HCN
I refer to your list regarding the statistics of childhood diseases, deaths before and after vaccines.
I am not impressed by the list at all. Nor will my colleagues be. Even if I believed the numbers to be true which they could be or not.
The cases were many for childhood diseases before introduction of vaccines,
After introductions of vaccines children started having many more cases of grown up diseases which before hardly ever occurred in small children, to name but a few of these diseases, Leukemia, cancer, autism , asperger syndroms, ticks, Cot Deaths, various allergies, respiratory and gastric, diabetes, DIABETES IN SMALL CHILDREN ! CHOLESTEROL,ADHD aTTENTION dEFICIT HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER, ADD, PDD.
Childhood diseases are necessary to a good immune system and are only dangerous if they happen in malnourished children. Great benefit comes from undergoing such a disease, as we watch the children before and after naturally contracting the disease they suddenly grow taller, they behave in a more mature way, what we call a growth leap, which in this generation in teh west very few experience.
Whole families in the vaccinated society shatterred! Quality of lives of these family – zilch!
If they continue to rely on established health, they will be your subscribers for life long antidepressants, anti-hystamine, various sleeping pills, beta blockers and who knwos what else.
Very few families untainted by vaccines can stand the hazard, next generation a little less, and the third collapses, children and parents bogged down!
My colleagues see it in their practice very often, I do too, luckily sometime we can give what you may call sugar pills or water retaining the memory of Thuja, Silica, Sulph, Calc, Tub, Bac, and other eighty remedies to fit the picture created by this havoc. We save the lucky kids and the whole family is relieved and follows suit.
Warhelmet said
Tony – Because you probably understand the anecdotal, my sister had whooping cough. Not very nice. It caused her developmental problems as well as making her very ill. This was in the aftermath of a vaccination scare which caused rates to drop. You should talk to people who have suffered permanent disability as a result of “necessary” childhood diseases. The families who lost people – thankfully few these days in the UK. But these people do not have much of a voice.
Tony – the patients that you and your fellow practitioners see are a self-selecting sample. Whether they are representative of the entire population is a moot point. Without detailed demographic research, it is impossible to say.
Those well known diseases of grownups such as cot deaths? The business of the self-selecting sample of patients combined with homeopathy’s individualised approach to disease makes the pronouncements of homeopaths on public health difficult to accept at face value. Essentially, most homeopaths lack the necessary knowledge and skillset to allow them to make meaningful comments on public health matters.
Statements about diabetes are also suspect in that Type I and Type II are so very different from each other – you do not distinguish. If you are going to claim that homeopathy can cure diabetes, you need to be more specific and also expect approbrium from the diabetic community.
tony said
Diverting again.
Whopping cough is not a normal childhood disease that increases the immune system, but if one.
Childhood diseases like mumps rubella and measles, enhance the stregth of the immune systems and once a child had gone through it, children are immune for life, and their immune system is stronger for having gone through the disease (generally for healthy children not a grave disease, grave for the malnourished – but the vaccinations for the malnourished will prove even more deadly as they have the violent preservatives to add to the mixture of whatever germs etc. is put in the vaccines.
Strengthening of the child will prevent him getting whooping cough. FOllowing the vaccinations there had been a few outbreak of the disease in the US. And many anecdotes in patients who were immunized and got it when adults a terrible experience. The anecdote of your sister is indeed a sorry one.
Children who are well fed and maintain good health have a leap in their development after measles, mumps, rubella (scarlet fever is not in this count).
ALl these diseases can be easily treated in homeopathy, as they indeed were in the epidemics. Homeopathy would not have been so quickly wide spread had it not been for the treatment of homeopaths of the epidemics since circa 1800 onwards.
Diabetes type I it is that sprang from vaccines special work was done in New Zealand but the USA and Britain don’t fall much behind, so to speak, in the vast numbers of juvenile diabetes.
http://www.whale.to/v/coulter.html
and we discussing vaccinations damages and not cure right now, you are diverting again.
[My bold for reasons of Scopie's Law - gimpy]
Warhelmet said
Oh dear. So there are special diseases that are “necessary” to normal development? And pertussis is not one of them? So, is it OK to vaccinate against these non-special diseases? I suspect that your answer will be no.
These special diseases, can you explain why they are so necessary to normal development? This is a most curious idea. Historically, there were places in the world where diseases like mumps and measles were unknown – e.g. the Americas. The importation of such diseases to the Americas had a devastating effect on the indigenous population. Thus it can be argued that the special diseases that you hint at are NOT necessary for normal development – unless you are suggesting that in the absence of such diseases, whole swathes of the world’s population were in someway developmentally disadvantaged?
dvnutrix said
Really a response to Tony but there are only so many reply levels. Just to highlight one item:
I don’t pretend to understand what you mean by “violent preservatives” but just to emphasise that MMR is a live vaccine and a preservative would be counter-productive
Do you have a respectable reference for the following for measles, mumps and rubella?
Because, it seems to me that one of the reasons that you need herd immunity is not only to protect children who are immuno-compromised but also infants – infants who are statistically more likely to develop SSPE.
[This video may be a trigger for some people.] Meet Natalie: she is 10 years old and has SSPE. Natalie developed measles in 1999 when she was a baby: she contracted measles from an unvaccinated 11 year-old boy in her doctor’s waiting room.
For less of a trigger, read an infectious diseases’ doctor’s musings: Reflections on the realities of measles.
Any chance of a verifiable source for this assertion other than videos of people holding up their children’s drawings before and after infection?
Warhelmet said
Tony – I know who Harris Coulter is. I’m surprised that you did not mention the sky-rocketing levels of violence and crime that Coulter attributes to vaccination. I do not know if his position has changed, but Coulter has published an AIDS denialist book – “AIDS and Syphilis: The Hidden Link”.
There is no evidence to suggest that the rise in juvenile Type I diabetes is due to vaccination. Suggesting that the evidence is there and has been deliberately surpressed as part of a conspiracy is rather an extreme position. Are you going to tell me that given the numbers of researchers involved over the years that all of them are so morally bankrupt to surpress information and that they don’t actually care about the lives of children? Blimey.
nioma said
My vacccinated grandchildren are not as strong and lively as my non vaccinated grandchildren.
Furthermore there measles and mumps have been followed by a big growth leap and better relationswith their seiblings and friends.
I myself have been vaccinated against influenza in the past and everyyear it was followed sooner or later with a tough flu. I have stopped, an lo and behold, I only got a slight cold for the last two winters.
This is no statistics but it matches well similar cases.
Chris said
Wow, it took two whole years to think of that little bit of an anecdote. Actually the statistics show that measles causes permanent damage, including death, at least in one out of a thousand cases. The vaccine is much safer than the disease.
If you have real statistics that show the MMR vaccine used in the UK (not India) is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella then present it.
HCN said
Wow, Tony was really stupid enough to pull out whale.to as a reference! I hope he actually looks at the Scopie’s Law link that Gimpy posted. Did you happen to notice I have a tribute page on that site: http://www.whale.to/a/hcn_.html
I consider it a badge of honor.
Now, I’ll stop trying to reason with Tony. Pointing and laughing is the most appropriate way to treat him.
Abhi said
my asthma & allergy have cleared after homeopathic treatment… its great !! thanks
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