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A grumble on the poor quality of a libertarian discourse on passive smoking

Posted by gimpy on June 21, 2009

Spiked presents itself as “an independent online phenomenon dedicated to raising the horizons of humanity by waging a culture war of words against misanthropy, priggishness, prejudice, luddism, illiberalism and irrationalism in all their ancient and modern forms.” – a statement of intent that in this wordy form oozes smirking superiority and arrogance but is attractive in principle. I am a firm believer in robust debate, wide ranging freedoms of speech and expression, including the right to be wrong, offensive and offensively wrong. I also believe that evidence is important in forming conclusions. I suspect that Spiked don’t, offering lightweight arguments of irresponsibility masquerading as concern for liberties instead.  Take this article by Suzy Dean on passive smoking for example. Dean is critical of arguments made by medical experts suggesting that the government should consider a ban on smoking in cars when children under 16 are present.
Dean sets out her case by arguing that the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee published a report on the government’s management of risk concluding that environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is not the threat it’s purported to be and therefore did not justify a ban. Before suggesting that “much of the science which makes up the passive-smoking case fails to mention that smoking-related illnesses – like lung cancer, cardiovascular disease and respiratory disease – are the product of a number of factors, such as genetics and diet, in addition to the amount of exposure to tobacco smoke.”.
Dealing first with the House of Lords report, it’s conclusions are actually:

The evidence we took on passive smoking leads us to doubt whether government guidelines on risk management have been properly implemented. In particular, the purpose of legislation should have been defined more clearly and greater attention should have been given to available scientific evidence, the relative merits of alternative policy options and the impact of legislation on personal freedom and choice. Failure to consider these matters properly has resulted in the introduction of a policy that appears to demonstrate a disproportionate response to the problem. Lessons learned from the progress of this legislation should be used to ensure that future policy responses are transparent, evidence-based, and proportionate

The report is arguing not that the ban was unjustified, just that its stated intent was misleading.  Earlier in the report the Lords laid out their arguments, not disputing the harmfulness of passive smoking, but the balance of that against civil liberties and suggested that the government should have been more honest in explaining the legislation, suggesting that the aims and benefits of the smoking ban were directed more at reducing the overall level of smoking in the population than protecting non smokers.

On the subject of non-smoke related environmental and genetic contributions to ‘lung cancer, cardivascular disease and respiratory disease’ Dean’s arguments are disingenuous to the point of dishonesty.  Cancer Research UK make clear that ‘Smoking causes almost 90% of lung cancer deaths‘ and the evidence is strong in its role, in both passive and active forms, in cardiovascular disease and respiratory disease.  While diet and genetics undoubtedly play a part smoking is recognised as a major contributory factor, therefore reducing smoking adn exposure to smoke will reduce levels of these diseases.

After building her argument on assertions unfounded in evidence Dean then launches an attack on the “anti-smoking lobby demonising parents who light up around their children” by kicking the stuffing out of a schoolboy who appeared on a television programme with the strawman argument that ‘if you put a kid in the car with second-hand cigarette smoke, you are basically killing them’.  This, Dean imagines, is a “coercive, guilt-tripping impetus step[ing] out from behind the veil of passive-smoking pseudo-science”.  This is the thoughts of a school age child she is criticising, not a reasoned and evidenced argument.

Instead of sweeping up the straw and acknowledging the evidence Dean concludes that:

We should defend adult decision-making and tell the government and its army of moralists to butt out rather than watch our freedoms go up in a puff of smoke.

This kind nonsense has a following amongst many self-professing libertarians but is profoundly unhelpful to evidence based arguments of personal responsibility and decision making.  Instead of making arguments that adults should be able, as part of a package of rights, to take decisions which are certainly unhealthy for them and possibly for their children and thus making the honest case that being a libertarian means allowing people to harm themselves and to a lesser extent others she lacks the courage to do so, finding it easier to misrepresent a House of Lords report and ignore evidence undermining her assertions.

[bpsdb]

68 Responses to “A grumble on the poor quality of a libertarian discourse on passive smoking”

  1. The discourse has been done, where it should be, in the courts.

    http://thejournal.parker-joseph.co.uk/blog/_archives/2008/7/24/3807604.html

    The Anti-Smoking brigade are having to rely on Fake Charities, Lobbying and repressive legislation to cover for bad science, which is reprehensible.

  2. gimpy said

    Ian, the dangers of passive smoking are real and measurable. Governments might seek to exaggerate them to influence public opinion, there might be charities campaigning against passive smoking funded out of the public purse and there might be lobbyists for antismoking organisations trying to influence policy but this doesn’t make passive smoke safe.

    My point is that if libertarian arguments want to rely on evidence then they have to report it honestly. The argument is undermined by misreporting evidence and arguing against strawmen. I am not arguing that adults shouldn’t smoke in front of their children, but I would argue that they need to be informed of the consequences of their actions to make informed decisions whether to do so or not. I would prefer this approach to reducing public consumption of tobacco rather than a legislative one. Which, I would hope, would be consistent with a libertarian outlook.

    • Ian, the dangers of passive smoking are real and measurable.

      If you quote CRUK as a definitive and reliable sourse, of course you would come to that conclusion. But then they are paid £4m per year by government to say exactly that.

      The truth is slightly different. For example

      Of the 75 published studies of ETS and lung cancer, 70 percent
      did not report statistically significant differences of risk, 17 percent
      claim an increased risk, and 13 percent imply a reduction of risk.

      • gimpy said

        Oh for goodness sake Dick, CRUK have a budget of hundreds of millions, government contributions are nothing. And are you also implying that researchers working for them will fake results to appease a government line?

        And your reference is not a scientific finding, it is an opinion piece. A well referenced and argued one, but still opinion. It’s also irrelevant to my post above in which you will see that I wasn’t arguing for or against a smoking ban, I was criticising the argument for distorting evidence and apparently being too cowardly to state that actions have consequences. If you want to make an argument for smoking bars go ahead, just don’t misrepresent the harm done by these.

      • An opinion piece referring to an analysis of all published studies on the subject. So perfectly valid.

        As for CRUK, the £4m funds their ‘tobacco control’ arm. It is ‘restricted funds’ which means they can only spend it how government tell them. If they wished to be impartial, they could always refuse the funding I suppose. After all, as you state, they have plenty other income to fall back on (about £472m IIRC). The simple fact is that they are not an impartial source on SHS. You will never, for example, hear from CRUK that 70% of published studies on SHS and lung cancer have proven no statistical risk. According to CRUK, the ‘evidence is overwhelming’, and ‘the debate is over’. It quite clearly isn’t.

    • It is so very sad the way you see the world.

      You say:
      Governments might seek to exaggerate them to influence public opinion, there might be charities campaigning against passive smoking funded out of the public purse and there might be lobbyists for anti smoking organisations trying to influence policy.
      and that appears to be ok

      but if Libertarians wish to rebut those arguments you say:
      My point is that if libertarian arguments want to rely on evidence then they have to report it honestly.

      So what you are really saying is that those advocating a smoking ban can lie, cheat, distort science to meet a political agenda, but those who do not want a ban should be constrained.

      Hmmm, says everything really.

  3. Education not legislation is an acceptable way forward.

    Landlords, club owners and another private establishments should be free to choose whether to allow smoking on their premises, including the use of extractor and air movement equipment.

    If there is such a public outcry for smoke free establishments the market will respond to that.

    Banning and prohibition has never worked, for any product or substance. Repressive legislation has never worked.

    That is the position of the Libertarian Party UK. Informed choice.

    • gimpy said

      Well that’s fine as a starting position but why should the market decide? The market isn’t a metric of individual will, it is just a means of turning resource into product and not the only one. The economic and social spheres are not the same entity. Besides given that smoking is addictive it will actually decrease the levels of free will operating within the market.

      *edit*

      I should also add that because the market is exploitative it can decrease the opportunity available to those it exploits, thus reducing their liberty and choice.

    • Annette said

      “Landlords, club owners and another private establishments should be free to choose whether to allow smoking on their premises, including the use of extractor and air movement equipment.”

      Do private establishments include shops, cinemas, theatres, workplaces? Anything not owned by the state? They should all be free to allow smoking?

      Extractor and air movement equipment is frequently inadequate, in my experience. There are many people who are very troubled by cigarette smoke, and their ability to go into public places has been curtailed for a century because to do so, they’ve been forced by smokers to breathe their smoke.

      I loathe smoke and can’t take much of it before I have to leave any building where people are smoking. For decades I’ve been excluded from pubs and many restaurants because of the smoke. I’ve been denied so many opportunities for simple social interaction with friends and colleagues because of this. And my ability to earn a living has been affected by having to find employers whose offices weren’t smokey. All of the education of smokers about the risks of passive smoking on others around them didn’t help me one jot – what helped me was legislation to force smokers to stop polluting the public buildings I use.

      A close relative of mine is actually allergic to smoke and has suffered even more because of the “rights” of smokers to pollute any public space that she wanted to enter. The ban on smoking in all public buildings has transformed her life even more than mine. She is disabled and chronically ill, but she is now able to take pleasure in going into a country pub to enjoy society, instead of being excluded.

      Smokers don’t have to smoke, but the rest of us do have to breathe.

  4. I’ve never met a member of the anti-smoking brigade, but where can I sign up? They sound like good folk!

    It seems to be a law of nature that when people like doing something they are unable to accept that it can be harmful. Thus we see people advancing not merely libertarian arguments in favor of the right to smoke – i.e. adult human beings should be allowed to choose to harm themselves if they wish – which is a reasonable argument (although ultimately I don’t buy it).

    But the same people seem to feel an almost irresistable attraction towards the idea that smoking isn’t actually all that harmful. After all, genes and diet are important too, so who cares about a little smoke? And down that road lies the madness of denying the link exists at all – I’ve seen that happen.

    I suspect that they can sense that the core libertarian philosophy – that people should be allowed to choose what to do with lives – runs into serious problems when children enter the picture, and realize that something more is necessary to convince people that smoking around kids is OK. Unfortunately, this “something more” is crap science.

    The situation with global warming is exactly the same. Some people don’t like the idea that governments should be regulating businesses and consumers to reduce carbon emissions. Fair enough. But they almost invariably end up at least flirting with, if not wedded to, the idea that carbon emissions are not so bad really, global warming has many causes doesn’t it and anyway it’s bloody cold today isn’t it, global warming my ass…

    • I’ve never met a member of the anti-smoking brigade, but where can I sign up? They sound like good folk!

      Not according to one who worked with them for over 20 years in the US.

      “The people attacking Siegel are Goerlitz’s former colleagues in the anti-smoking movement, whom he describes as “some of the most obnoxious, egotistical people I’ve ever met in my life.”"

      And on the ’science’, he had this to say.

      “This is no longer about science….The numbers are made up.”

      … and he would know.

      • Andy said

        Aaah yes, I remember the days of standing in a queue of 20 or more people at the bank, all having to suffer for the rights of just one person, in the queue or not, exercising their right to do as they please, when they please, where they please.

        Yes, the anti-smokers can be obnoxious to be sure – but “the most obnoxious”? I think not.

        I understand libertarian arguments but I’m with legislation on this one. Few smokers have shown themselves capable of exercising consideration for others without such consideration being imposed on them.

        My conclusion is reinforced every time I run the gauntlet of smokers who gather immediately around the entrances of shopping centres where smoking is banned indoors such that great wads of smoke are dragged indoors every time someone enters or leaves the premises.

        Now, if there was some point to the (usually) childish habit, maybe I could be swayed just a little.

    • ez said

      To Andy,

      Well, the childish habit is not really so innocent considering the “habit” is largely a result of addiction, these people are sick – I’m not saying this in a derogative way, but just as a statement of a fact – alcoholism is also a sickness of the same kind, but luckily it’s easier to avoid “second-hand drinking”, as you can simply refuse to keep them company – with the smoke you can’t… and this makes it much more difficult to judge the situation appropriately.

      But there’s another side to this – I know a person who was a heavy smoker for a long time, then he tried to give up smoking after all these campaigns that smoking is bad for you, and guess what – shortly after he quit smoking he was diagnosed with brain tumor, while there was not any trace of it during his previous examinations while he was still smoking. He got his treatment (surgery) but decided that he will now restrict the number of cigarettes a day to a reasonable (for him) amount rather than trying to give it up completely, – and he does not have any recurrences of the brain tumor or any other similar problem ever since, and it’s more than 10 years already. So one can argue (whatever the mechanism of this might be), that smoking prevents him from getting much more sicker… It’s just another anecdote, of course, but not a homeopathic one this time.

      • Andy said

        I understand the addictive aspect of the argument, but that is all-too-often secondary to the “I’ll do it because I want to” aspect.

        Smokers speak of the “anti-smoking lobby” but the smoking lobby hold far more meetings, on every street corner and anywhere else the law allows, and every light-up seems to reinforce their commitment to the cause.

        Although, I must admit a lot of smokers are considerate enough to hold the cigarette low down, sometimes lower than their seat and often couched within their semi-closed hand, which we all know completely prevents the smoke from dissipating and affecting others.

  5. No, I’m sorry but that is not a starting position, it is the position.

    Free, Informed choice. I will not condone coercion.

    I did not say that the market would decide, I said that the market would respond to any genuine demand for smoke free environments. I will not have my words twisted to suit your argument.

    In fact it has been tried in the past by various Breweries who tried smoke free pubs, and it failed because the take up was not economically viable. Non-smokers tend to be non-drinkers.

    With regards to market exploitation, any company in business is going to try to market its products as best it can.

    I don’t suppose for one minute that you would consider that the ‘exploitation’ of the current smoking ban by those nice people in the big Pharma companies who make anti smoking tablets, some of which actually DO kill people vs passive smoking which is only a risk with no verifiable deaths, nullifies your argument of market exploitation.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/new-controls-put-on-antismoking-drug-after-deaths-686634.html

    • gimpy said

      Isn’t advertising a form of coercion Ian? Special offers? Discounts? These are all tools of the market.

      You also didn’t address the point that because smoking is addictive it reduces free will (and effectively makes users dependent on aspects of the market – tobacco companies).

      As for the pharma company arguments, I don’t believe in completely free markets, I believe in regulation – regulation which requires drug companies list side effects, are subject to advertising restrictions, are only able to offer the more risky products through an informed intermediary (such as a doctor), etc.

      • Gimpy, you have a very inflated trust in doctors as arbiters of common sense.

        Zyban and Champix have both been the cause of numerous deaths in the US, yet doctors are still advocating its use in this country. In fact, as this Wawickshire PCT document shows, these drugs are being pushed on smokers at every opportunity. If you read the document, you will see that Warks PCT’s smoking cessation service is sponsored by Pfizer.

        Guess which products Pfizer manufacture.

      • gimpy said

        Dick, is this an argument that the market corrupts choice? I thought you were a Libertarian.

        I must admit though it does make me uncomfortable when commercial organisations impinge on the workings of the state, such as your example. Nothing a spot of regulation can’t fix though.

      • Legislation from whom? While HMG and the EU are moving to prohibit the tobacco industry from even talking to legislators, they are simultaneously funding manufacturers of competing nicotine delivery products and encouraging their false reporting of science.

        Considering the arrangment as it stands results in users of a legal product being marginalised, denormalised and with no right to representation, there is something very wrong. It is not the market corrupting choice here, it is the state.

    • Free, Informed choice. I will not condone coercion.

      Is that like a mantra for you or do you have any justification for saying that?

  6. Coercion is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way. Advertising is persuading them to do so, even if it is loaded with misleading statements there is no compulsion.

    Again you are twisting the argument.

    Look, I have proven that anti smoking tablets have killed people, I have proven that not even the EU can verify a single death with smoking as the cause, and a court ruling where it was stated that the Medical Committee could not establish with certainty the connection.

    Why, when faced with such facts do people persist in telling me that they know better than I how I should lead my life.

    If you are willing to accept the bad science, Fake Charities, Lobbying and repressive legislation that is entirely up to you, but please don’t impose your views or morals on me, its rather like dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    • Annette said

      “Why, when faced with such facts do people persist in telling me that they know better than I how I should lead my life.”

      Because what you do affects other people? You are forced by law not to murder people, because, understandably, other people don’t like being murdered. You might like murdering people, but the rest of us have a say in whether you’re allowed to do it or not. The same with smoking, if you’re going to make other people breathe your smoke.

    • Tom said

      Asking for the EU to name individuals who have died from passive smoking shows a total (deliberate?) misunderstanding of the way complex factors combine to cause risk. I don’t suppose they could name anyone who’d died of eating too much red meat, either, but it’s pretty clear that an excess of red meat causes an increase in cancer risk.

      • Yes, lets discuss the risks. There is a risk I will get run over by a bus every time I go into the city, will anyone legislate against that, No because its ridiculous to do so.

        Using risk as an identifier is good as an educational tool, not a legislative one. Then we have to look at the method and use of over simplification of those risks, using them with inflated propaganda and responding in a manner which is completely disproportionate to the original risk.

        Let me give you an example of how that risk is overinflated as a means to an end.
        http://thejournal.parker-joseph.co.uk/blog/_archives/2006/12/31/2608301.html

        So I ask, if this substance is so lethal, why is it not banned in factories, in our foodstuffs and our environment overall. Because it is not lethal in the doses that one finds in cigarettes that the propaganda tries to portray. Bad science is being used for a political agenda, one which I have no intention of succumbing to.

        As an informed smoker, I have looked at the risks, and am willing to take them as being acceptable risks, in fact find them to be lesser risks than most other harms that may befall me in my lifetime.

      • gimpy said

        Ian, don’t have time to argue about your presentation of the evidence, just a quick question thought.

        If you are going to use scientific evidence in your arguments will you change them as more evidence is acquired?

      • Rich Woods said

        Ian said: “Yes, lets discuss the risks. There is a risk I will get run over by a bus every time I go into the city, will anyone legislate against that, No because its ridiculous to do so.”

        We do legislate against the risk of being run over by a bus. We require drivers to be licenced, we req

      • Rich Woods said

        Oops, sorry, seem to have submitted that last one early somehow

        Ian said: “Yes, lets discuss the risks. There is a risk I will get run over by a bus every time I go into the city, will anyone legislate against that, No because its ridiculous to do so.”

        We do legislate against the risk of being run over by a bus: we require drivers to be licensed, we require vehicles to be built with safety features and to pass regular maintenance checks; we have criminal penalties for failure to adhere to these standards and for acts considered as dangerous or reckless driving; we require owners to carry insurance. All of these aim to reduce the risk of death or injury on the roads, to ameliorate lasting effects after the fact (where possible), and to reduce subsequent repetition.

        I partially agree with you on the actual risks of second-hand smoke, but I also look at the present smoking ban as shoring up a matter of common decency: many people (I don’t have figures so I’m not going to say the majority) find the smell of smoke repulsive, especially so on clothes and in hair after a night in the pub. I’m sure you wouldn’t wish to vomit or urinate on your fellow pub-goers, however urgent the need became; in the same way I don’t see why you would have a problem with stepping outside for five minutes if you felt the urge for a cigarette.

  7. Warhelmet said

    The issue of informed consent is an interesting one given that Big Tobacco suppressed the data they had on the risks of smoking. It is possible to have a debate now about informed consent and smoking now, but it would not have been possible in the past.

  8. Annette said

    “You can use no smoking establishments and I will use those which allow smoking. Simples. Free choice. No coercion on either side.”

    It doesn’t work that way. I work in the City, where we’ve had a non-smoking pub for a few years. But my colleagues and I hardly ever went there, because the smokers in the group wanted to be able to smoke and didn’t care about anyone who couldn’t cope with the smoke in the pubs they went to. The non-smokers who weren’t bothered about smoke went along with it. The result was that the social life of the office took place in smokey bars and pubs.

    There were very few non-smoking pubs before the ban, because the needs of smokers seemed to be more important than the needs of non-smokers. So those who couldn’t tolerate smoke were mostly ignored and excluded from pubs in general.

    • So you would rather legislate and force everyone to fit into your idea of a social scene? Now that is coercion.

    • So, the significant majority didn’t care one way or the other. That’s the way I see it too.

      Yet we now have a law which requires 100% of pub-goers to abide by the wishes of that significant minority. No exceptions. Not even ONE pub or club in the entire country. Cigar bars where (the clue is in the name) people went to smoke cigars, are not allowed. Shisha bars where (again, watch for the clue) people go to smoke shisha pipes, are not allowed.

      That is coercion, pure and simple, and no amount of evidence will ever make that right. If you enter one of these places, on your head it should be.

      • gimpy said

        Dick, I can put you in touch with a shisha bar that allows smoking on its terrace if you like. It has a shelter and patio heaters for when it gets cold. Has an excellent selection of meze too.

      • Nice twist of the argument Gimpy, but why not tackle the nonsensical use of coercion on such businesses instead. Especially since hookah pipes don’t emit second hand smoke.

        The American Lung Association and the French INPES (Institut National pour la Prevention et l’Education a la Sante) resorted to faking (photo-montages) posters and images showing hookahs emitting passive smoke [see right and below]. Of course, they do not.

  9. Warhelmet said

    I enjoyed smoking opium the one time I did it.

  10. [...] a comment » Naomi and Gimpy have written a couple of things today about the arch-libertarians over at Spiked Online. Spiked is [...]

  11. Warhelmet said

    Hang on a minute. I thought that the reduction in the maximum nicotine content of cigarettes in the EU was supposed to make them so weak that nicotine addiction was no longer an excuse for giving them up? I’m sure that I’ve read stuff along those lines.

    Legislation, whatever. Education, sure. But harm reduction? You don’t get to see that argument.

  12. Warhelmet said

    Gimpy – sigh – it’s the Illuminati.

  13. Dick,

    I did a quick google search on your Dr. Chaouachi and found this, which might be of some interest:

    On March 15 2007, my attention was drawn to a patent for a tobacco smoking device, filed with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) for a “Hookah with simplified lighting” on June 9 2005. One of the authors of the device being patented was Kamal Chaouachi, who on December 2 2004, had a rapid response published in Tobacco Control [1] which was critical of a paper by Masiak et al [2]. The submission process for rapid responses asks authors to “Please declare any competing interests”. I noted that Dr Chaouachi’s letter contained no competing interest statement and so wrote to him requesting that he submit a further rapid response which would clarify his competing interest….
    (from: http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/13/4/327)

    Looks like the guy may not be such an independent authority after all…

  14. Dave Atherton said

    This is a good one Gimpy a 38 year research into passive smoking, involving 118,000 people, peer reviewed by other epidemiologists and comes to the following conclusions:

    “Conclusions The results do not support a causal relation between environmental tobacco smoke and tobacco related mortality, although they do not rule out a small effect. The association between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed.”

    ” Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, primarily asthma, bronchitis, and emphysema, has been associated with exposure to environmental tobacco smoke, but the evidence for increased mortality is sparse.”

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abridged/326/7398/1057

  15. Dave Atherton said

    This is a good one too, even ASH say the evidence is exaggerated.

    “Even Amanda Sandford admits: “A lot of the studies that have been done on passive smoking produce results that are not statistically significant according to conventional analysis.”"

    “Dr Ken Denson, of the Thame Thrombosis and Haemostasis Research Foundation, says: “I simply do not know where they conjure up their statistics. The statistics for passive smoking, in particular, would not be published or even considered in any other scientific discipline. Deaths from smoking in general have been grossly exaggerated, particularly in relation to heart disease. ” Dr Denson is a medical scientist. He has published peer-reviewed research in respected academic journals. He is not funded by tobacco companies”

    http://www.ipcvision.com/page05/t-luckhurst-01.htm

  16. Dave Atherton said

    This is when the fibs began. It was in 1975 when Sir George Godber, who was the UK’s Chief Medical Officer, and was asked at the World Health Organization (WHO) about altering people’s behaviour to smoking, and responded that “it would be essential to foster an atmosphere where it was perceived that active smokers would injure those around them, especially their family and any infants or young children who would be exposed involuntarily to ETS.” When asked by a reporter why he had exaggerated the risks of secondary smoke, instead of denying that exaggeration, C. Everett Koop the American Surgeon General is quoted as saying he had to be “forceful in warning of the ETS threat in order to win the public’s attention.”

    http://www.geocities.com/madmaxmcgarrity/Dale.htm

  17. [...] Anyway, a good blog post by Naomi McAuliffe taking down its stupid misogyny. There’s also one by Gimpy challenging another Spiked article on passive smoking. But the most interesting is this one by Richard Wilson [...]

  18. The good thing about the science of the harms of passive smoking is that even if it’s all a myth, it’s a useful one, because it helps promote tobacco control which reduces actual smoking, which certainly is harmful. For once, science we can all support even if it’s rubbish!

  19. I just wish the anti-smoking lobby would act in the same manner.

    What lobby? Christ!

  20. Bill S Preston Esq said

    Spiked presents itself as “an independent online phenomenon dedicated to raising the horizons of humanity by waging a culture war of words against misanthropy, priggishness, prejudice, luddism, illiberalism and irrationalism in all their ancient and modern forms.”

    Thanks Gimpy, best laugh I’ve had all day!

  21. JOHN DOE said

    “I’m convinced. There’s a global conspiracy, is it lizards or jews?”

    Up until that comment Gimpy, you were being used to wipe the floor. With that comment you have humiliated yourself, and lost credibility. The best thing you did here was to raise the issue in the first place. That is where your credibilty begins and ends. Admit you are wrong in the passive smoking debate as was your criticism of the article it stemmed from. At least then you can invite a degree of respect.

    • gimpy said

      John, yes I have lost utterly by not acknowledging a grand conspiracy of pharma, cancer research charities and government. A conspiracy that would require the silence of all from a lowly lab technician to marketing people through to government ministers. I have lost because I won’t acknowledge that dubious opinion pieces override the scientific consensus on passive smoking. And I have lost because my criticism of the article linked to reports directly contradicting the assertions made by the author.

      Why is it so important to you that passive smoking be proven to have negligible risk? Surely a libertarian argument would be that the risk does not matter, so why resort to cherry picking, quote mining and distortions to make your case?

    • Blueblackjack said

      Disagree Dick, condescending responses are the author’s prerogative. Besides, it made me laugh.

      For the author’s interest the touted Enstrom & Kabat study (Dick’s “largest study on SHS”) is not without methodological problems as its touters would have you believe. The BMJ’s rapid responses on the study in question show several serious methodological flaws being raised by experienced epidemiologists and the BMJ’s peer reviewers. Also, you’ll probably note a bunch of cheap ad hominems are thrown about on both sides.

      The thing about this issue is that it polarises so greatly that each side is guilty of the same fallacies just on opposite sides. The anti-smoking movement tend to extend their evidence base beyond what there is a reasonable basis for (in my opinion diseases caused by active and to a lesser extent passive smoking) to more improbably territory (like immediately measurable heart attack reductions following smoking bans), and everybody that disagrees is a tobacco industry stooge.

      In response the pro-smoking/pro-choice movement reacts by not only attacking areas where the tobacco control movement has chanced its hand, but also areas where there is a more convincing evidence base. Everybody that disagrees is a controlling health Nazi, manipulating the noble free people of the world through a giant pharma/lizard consipiracy.

      Reality is probably somewhere in between, so it’s pretty difficult for actual scientific investigation to be done (where there are rightly uncertainties about relatively small effect sizes like passive smoking, which need to be investigated with great care) without being politicised by one set of grasping hands or the other.

      • Dave Atherton said

        BBJ the strength of the Enstrom Kabat report is that 95% of the funding was supplied by the American Cancer Society (ACS) and 100% of the data, Cancer Prevention Study 1 (CPS) and CPS2 was supplied by them. The ACS only cynically withdrew funding when E/K were coming up with the “wrong results.” The last 5% was paid for by tobacco companies on the proviso that they did not have sight of he results and purely for the printing and publication costs. Most of the commentators on Rapid Responses in the BMJ are from the likes of Professors Thun and Glantz, both senior people within the ACS! The ad hominen attacks and failure to address what these flaws were was commented on by the editors.

        “Alison Tonks Associate Editor of the BMJ wrote in response to Glantz and Thun…

        I feel quite embarrassed following the debate on this article. Many postings look more like a witch hunt than a scientific debate.

        … and Richard Smith, the Editor of the BMJ, commented…

        Fourthly, I found it disturbing that so many people and organisations referred to the flaws in the study without specifying what they were. Indeed, this debate was much more remarkable for its passion than its precision.

        Also around that time Dennis Bray—who works for the Institute for Coastal Research, GKSS Geesthact, Germany—said…

        “The paper examines silencing through a systematic examination of the “rapid responses” to a smoking study published in the British Medical Journal claiming that second hand smoke is not as dangerous as conventionally believed. Media coverage of the smoking study is also examined, as is the question of whether there is self-silencing by the media regarding doubts about the negative effects of passive smoke. The results suggest that the public consensus about the negative effects of passive smoke is so strong that it has become part of a regime of truth that cannot be intelligibly questioned.”

        Also after publication Glantz and Thun went after Enstrom a Professor at the University Of California (UCLA), to deprive him of funding for future projects, and hence be unemployed. The following is an extract of an article I wrote for Devil’s Kitchen.

        “Now it gets dirty. Herr Glantz and Comrade Thun since 2005 have gone out of their way to have Professor Enstrom removed from his post at University Of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) by accusing him of scientific misconduct.

        Also just in case Enstrom and Kabat comes up with the “wrong results” again he has been denied any further access to CPS2 and ACS’ data [PDF].”

        Taking your arguement to its logical conclusion, the methodology used in E/K is the basis of all scientific studies, and especially for passive smoking then ALL studies are valueless. Harm can never be proven,

        http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7413/505-a

        http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2008/12/passive-smoking-and-salt-mines.html

  22. Robin said

    “The same in Ireland “New figures from the Department of Health put the overall smoking rate at 29%, compared to 27% in 2002. The rate of smoking is higher among women at 31%, compared to 27% of men. Smoking is also more popular among younger age groups, with more than one-third of 18- to 29-year-olds now engaging in the habit.”

    You cant educate pork

  23. Robin said

    I agree with Andy. Whether someone elses urine on my leg can damage my health or not isnt the issue for me.

    • Dave Atherton said

      Robin, if people want to have swimming pools in which they can urinate in that is fine by me. Just put a sign up saying “Peeing Pool” and I will go to a swimming pool which says “No Peeing Allowed,” then we have a win-win, where coprophiliacs and non coprophiliacs can each have their tastes catered for.

  24. Alex said

    Andy: the thing is, the fact that you do not like something is not itself reason enough to make it illegal. Even if you really, really dislike it (this applies to Annette above, too).

    You are right that the man urinating against your leg is an example of something that you don’t like and which is also prohibited by law. But I don’t think it’s correct to conclude that it’s illegal because you don’t like it. Urinating against people’s legs is surely something which we don’t allow because first, almost everybody doesn’t like it, and second almost nobody wants to do it.

    This is why your implicit comparison with smoking is not completely fair. The fact is that a significant proportion of the population (namely, smokers) really don’t mind if you have a cigarette at the bus stop or not, and that same bunch of people would like to be allowed to do so themselves.

    This does not mean that smoking in public should not be illegal. You could certainly argue that the wishes of those who would prefer smoking to be illegal for one reason or another outweigh the wishes of those who wouldn’t. Perhaps there are a lot more of them, or perhaps there are other factors which give the wishes of the anti-smokers priority (this is why it would be useful if it were established that second hand or environmental smoke posed a significant health risk).

    But this is a little by-the-by, because smoking law in England at the moment isn’t really that similar to laws which prevent people from wandering up and pissing on you in the street. It is more similar to situation in which people who enjoy pissing on one another are not permitted to join up with other people who enjoy pissing on one another and go to a place established for the express purpose of hosting these pissing-enthusiasts while they have a good old piss on one another. No matter how much you deplore such people and their activities, that doesn’t strike me as very fair.

  25. Evil Andy said

    “The report is arguing not that the ban was unjustified, just that its stated intent was misleading”

    I think this is directly contradicted by the excerpt you quoted immediately before:

    “…greater attention should have been given to available scientific evidence, the relative merits of alternative policy options and the impact of legislation on personal freedom and choice. Failure to consider these matters properly has resulted in the introduction of a policy that appears to demonstrate a disproportionate response to the problem

    My reading of that is that they are saying the policy is, at a minimum, over the top. Also in your quote:

    “Lessons learned from the progress of this legislation should be used to ensure that future policy responses are transparent, evidence-based, and proportionate”

    The clear implication being that the Lords believed this policy was not sufficiently transparent, evidence-based or proportionate. They mention purpose (or intent as you put it) because the policy can only be justified on the basis of something other than the stated aim. And the reason to avoid following these practices seems clear: because the evidence and sense of proportion would not be demonstrable for the real aim of the policy. It seems bizarre to imply in your post that it’s fine to implement policy in that way, and the Lords are quite correct to say this is unacceptable. How can a policy be acceptable if it cannot be justified in its own right?

  26. gimpy said

    Why don’t you argue against the evidence CRUK present rather than just assert they aren’t to be trusted because they accept funds from this source or that?

  27. gimpy said

    You don’t breathe out smoke from a hookah pipe? It doesn’t leak from the pipe after you inhale? The fact that some organisations may have photoshopped a poster for effect means that they don’t release second hand smoke?

    You have a very odd way of interpreting the world.

  28. If it’s good enough for the goose … (see Richard Wilson’s blog post, for example)

    And I did argue against the ‘evidence’ they present. They cherry-pick the studies they wish to publicise, and as is common in pharma and health circles, they either don’t report, or actively attempt to silence, any science which disagrees with their pre-determined stance. Their US counterpart (ACS) funded the biggest ever study on the effects of SHS (Enstrom & Kabat) but withdrew funding when it was clear that the result wasn’t going to favour them. This would have killed the study stone dead except that Philip Morris stepped in and merely paid the publishing costs. Guess what happened then? ACS screamed that it was tobacco funded and therefore not to be trusted, despite having been peer-reviewed and published in the BMJ. Both epidemiologists have now been shunned by anti-tobacco and their reputations besmirched simply because they refused to lie. Same with Michael Siegal and David Goerlitz.

    In Goerlitz’s case, he has worked for both sides and was asked the question as to which industry he trusted most. He chose the tobacco industry. Not surprising considering he was told to lie to courts on their behalf.

    They said: ‘You can add in anything you want to even if it’s a lie.’”

  29. Sidestream smoke is the SHS which anti-tobacco refers to as being dangerous, not exhaled smoke. Hookah pipes do not release sidestream smoke. It is also only heated in a completely different way to normal cigarettes which means its make-up is entirely different.

    I’m no expert, but the guy in my link is.

    Dr Kamal Chaouachi (pronounced Sha-wa-shi) is a Paris-based tobacco researcher who is arguably the world’s leading expert on the science of hookah smoking. He is a scientific collaborator of various excellence research centres in Asia, Africa and Europe. He also works as a consultant, though he has never been contracted by the pharmaceutical industry or tobacco industry.

    And guess what? He has struggled to have articles published too

    It was not easy to publish it. External “pressures”, so to speak, (likely by a peer-reviewer) tried to block the publication of my article by warning the Editors (who are independent scientists, I insist) that:

    “It would be very injurious for the scientific community to give a larger audience to Chaouachi by accepting his manuscript for publication in the Int J Environ Res Public Health: such publications are indeed frequently used by the tobacco industry to entertain the controversy about the health effects of the various forms of tobacco use.”

    Hmmm

  30. Apologies, Gimpy, I omitted the link.

  31. gimpy said

    I’m convinced. There’s a global conspiracy, is it lizards or jews?

  32. Ah. The final condescending argument which is always encountered in such circumstances where clever, highly-funded, and just-a-tad mendacious advocacy is challenged, and backed up with references. Yes, that’s correct, I’m a flat-earther, obviously.

    I’ll leave you with this. If you can point to just one daily newspaper or broadcaster in the UK who publicised it, you will have a case that the debate is balanced.

    In March this year, The National Bureau of Economic Research published the biggest ever survey of workplace smoking bans anywhere in the world. It examined 217,023 heart attack admissions and 2 million heart attack deaths in 468 counties in all 50 states of the USA over an eight-year period.

    It concluded:

    we find that workplace bans are not associated with statistically significant short-term declines in mortality or hospital admissions for myocardial infarction or other diseases. An analysis simulating smaller studies using subsamples reveals that large short-term increases in myocardial infarction incidence following a workplace ban are as common as the large decreases reported in the published literature.

    As Ian P-J said, the case for smoking bans has not been adequately made. Caution perhaps, but certainly not 100% coercive bans via legislation. Pro-choice organisations have held the door open for proper debate to tobacco control for years but they consistently refuse. The only court case regarding SHS concluded that there was no evidence to award damages. The largest study on SHS resulted in insignificant risk, and the largest study on smoking bans said there was no noticeable health benefit.

    Yet I am a conspiracy theorist?

  33. By the way, Gimpy, much respect to you for allowing dissenting voices on your blog – we may disagree on this issue but it’s good that you allow all aspects of a debate to be heard (condescending responses notwithstanding). ;-)

    I just wish the anti-smoking lobby would act in the same manner.

  34. Andy said

    Oh, and here I thought Gimpy was supposedly a member of the lobby. Must have missed the memo on censoring dissent.

    I’ll admit, though, that I don’t give a damn about the evidence either way for this one. Smoking stinks, quite literally, and if it takes legislation for me to be able to exercise my right not to smoke (just as legislation prevents people urinating on my leg at the bus stop), then I’ll side with legislation.

    I wonder though, is there any evidence that chiropractic can cure smoking addiction?

  35. Dave Atherton said

    We are on a slippery slope when we pass laws because people “stink.” I am allergic to animal fur, should be ban all pets from the streets and public places, if there is a brand of perfume that I do not like can I lobby Parliament to get it banned?

    If it happens in America it will happen here too, this is what the state of play there is. Andy are you happy?

    “Court: New Jersey woman can pursue perfume lawsuit

    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    Friday, January 9th 2009, 5:02 PM

    Taro/Getty

    NEWARK, N.J. – A New Jersey woman who claims she was disabled by a co-workers’ perfume can move forward with her worker’s compensation lawsuit, an appeals panel ruled Friday

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/01/09/2009-01-09_court_new_jersey_woman_can_pursue_perfum.html#ixzz0JM0hv5Bl&C

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