Lymphoma Association appoint former head of British Homeopathic Association as Chief Executive *Update*
Posted by gimpy on July 9, 2009
Sally Penrose, former head of the British Homeopathic Association (BHA), has been appointed the new Chief Executive of the Lymphoma Association (LA). The Association, in their latest newsletter, state that:
She joins us on 6 July and brings a wide range of experience. Sally spent the early part of her career in the book publishing industry, and more recently has held the position of Chief Executive of a charity, with a good knowledge of the health-care sector. I am sure you will join me in welcoming her to the Association and wishing her every success.
This is a worrying appointment by the LA as they have a well deserved reputation for good advice for people in a difficult situation.
Founded by patients in 1986, the Lymphoma Association is the only specialist UK charity that provides accurate medical information and support to lymphatic cancer patients, their families, friends and carers.
The British Homeopathic Association by contrast are a lobbying group for quackery, describing their role as follows:
The British Homeopathic Association exists to promote homeopathy practised by doctors and other health-care professionals.
We strongly believe that homeopathy should be fully integrated into the health-care system and available as a treatment choice for everyone.
Homeopathy is utterly implausible as a treatment for any condition, any effect observed is most likely due to placebo and it may well cause harm by delaying or preventing medical treatment. With this in mind we should consider how Penrose has spent her time at the BHA. She has managed the organisation while they launched campaigns for the use of NHS funding for homeopathy, promoted it as a valid treatment option and harassed and tried to discredit critics over minor issues in attempts to preserve NHS funding.
The attacks on homeopathy by a group of eminent scientists and doctors continued this year and the impact started to be felt as a number of Primary Care Trusts started cutting contracts with Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital and the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital. In May, a second letter from the same group of eminent scientists to PCTs, accompanied by a decommissioning document for use by PCTs, which included an NHS logo in the top right hand corner, was leaked to The Times. An immediate rebuttal was made through the media and this was followed by a letter to all PCTs refuting the arguments levelled against homeopathy together with our two-page summary of the evidence base.
The application document for the role of Chief Executive details the following desirable qualities:
• A proven track record of setting and articulating a compelling vision and leading and managing diverse operations.
• Effective team-building, staff and organisational development with ability to create a culture of professionalism and cohesiveness within an organisation.
• A proven track record of effective strategic planning and financial acumen.
• Demonstrable experience of building and sustaining relationships with a range of internal and external stakeholders including influencing key decision makers.
• Confident and highly developed communication skills with a wide range of audiences, including the media.
• Ability to demonstrate a full understanding of governance and how to work effectively with a board and how to act as a conduit for information between the board and staff.
• A track record of achievement in income generation.
• Knowledge and understanding of the structure, financing and politics of the health/cancer sectors in the UK.
• A nursing or healthcare qualification whilst not essential would be an advantage.
• Ability to quickly absorb the medical issues and terminology surrounding lymphomas and to represent the work of the Association intelligently in a variety of medical and non-medical settings.
• A clear and persuasive communicator who is capable of delivering complex messages to a variety of audiences, raising the profile of the organisation.
• A commitment to the highest standards of service delivery.
• Ability to instil confidence and trust in others through a collaborative style of working and making difficult decisions.
While there is no reason to doubt Ms Penrose’s ability to manage the internal workings of an organisation the evidence would suggest that her ability to manage their external appearance and to generate income is questionable. During her time at the BHA Ms Penrose has seen falling membership, declining revenue, failed to save Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital and managed largely unsuccessful attempts to reverse the growing criticism of homeopathy within the media and health professions, of course these aren’t her sole responsibility and she was reacting to external events to some extent but nevertheless it’s tricky to spin positively. MS Penrose’s obvious expertise would seem to be restricted to Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM).
Additionally the application form for the position at the Lymphoma Association makes clear that Ms Penrose will be expected to
[...] raise the profile of the Association externally and to enhance its development and reputation as the leading provider of information and support for those affected by lymphatic cancers. As the external face of the charity the Chief Executive will be expected to represent the views of those affected by lymphomas to the wider cancer community including policymakers and parliamentarians.
Ms Penrose carries considerable reputational baggage amongst those concerned with evidence based practice and the proper distribution of NHS funds to valid and effective treatment options.
Worryingly the LA, despite their stated commitment to ‘accurate medical information’, have recently appeared to start endorsing CAM therapies. At their recent National Conference, Jacky Owens, who describes herself as a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine – a title anyone prepared to pay a £300 subscription can use, gave a presentation on alternative therapies that claims homeopathy, amongst other treatments, has “some scientific evidence of effectiveness” as well as bizarre claims that healing touch can restore energy fields, aromathrapay oils affect specific structures in the limbic system and hypnosis works at a ‘cellular level’. This is nonsense and it is depressing that the Association are appearing to promote these concepts. These clash badly with their detailed, well researched and balanced articles on effective interventions for lymphoma and the possible side effects.
There is no doubt that conventional treatments for lymphoma are nasty, but they work. Nice smelling oils, sugar pills and hypnotic suggestion may have a placebo effect and act as pleasent distractions from the unpleasent side effects of chemotherapy but the Association should not be endorsing these in the way they seem to be doing. The employment of a cheerleader for homeopathy as Chief Executive only bolsters an impression of serious misjudgement.
I put my concerns about Sally Penrose to the LA. On the subject of complementary medicine the LA responded:
[...]all of our information, which is distributed to thousands of people a year, assumes conventional therapy to be the standard treatment for all patients, and any mention of complementary therapy, including homeopathy, to be just that – complementary. Indeed, our booklet, entitled Lymphomas, states ‘Complementary therapies do not claim to cure lymphoma. Be suspicious of any that do. Complementary therapies should not be used instead of your hospital treatment but can be used in addition to it if you choose.’
On the subject of Ms Penrose
Ms Penrose was employed because of her professional management experience to lead the organisation as its Chief Executive. Certainly, in appointing Ms Penrose to this role, nothing has changed with regards to the organisation’s position on this subject, and she is committed to this policy.
But the reassuring nature of this last statement is somewhat undermined with the admission that
a booklet about Complementary Therapies will be available soon
although it should be made clear this booklet has nothing to do with Ms Penrose, having being commissioned before her appointment.
I sincerely hope that Ms Penrose’s appointment has nothing to do with her past experience in CAM and that the Lymphoma Association maintain their admirable commitment to conventional medical treatments. But I find it difficult to believe that somebody who has spent several years campaigning for a utterly discredited branch of CAM can suddenly switch her allegiances to that of promoting evidence based medicine. This, combined with recent and upcoming promotion of CAM by the association, is a cause for concern. People with serious diseases, and their relatives, are often easy prey for those who wish to offer treatments outside the scientific and medical mainstream, almost always at a price. Charities working with these individuals have to be incredibly careful that they act in the best interests of their members. I do not wish to undermine the Lymphoma Association or their work, it is essential, but I believe it would be desirable to keep a close eye on their position on CAM and the advice they offer. With a cheerleader for CAM at their helm they may be tempted by the empty platitudes offered by alternative practitioners, or worse, they may become an active part of the CAM lobby that seeks to divert the precious resource of NHS funding into implausible treatments.
*Update*
It appears the Lymphoma Association have amended their website to remove references to homeopahty and the presentation of Jacky Owens from this page, although her presentation is still hosted on the site. They also now include this news item, which describes Sally Penrose as having “worked closely with both patients and the medical profession.”. Yes, she has. Unfortunately she’s worked with the part of the medical profession that is quackery inclined.


zeno said
Thanks for keeping an eye on these things.
“…it would be desirable to keep a close eye on their position on CAM and the advice they offer.”
Oh, I think we can do that!
phayes said
We shouldn’t have to. This appointment is ridiculously perverse.
Andysnat said
As a victim of a cancer of the type covered by this organisation, I find this appointment perverse in the extreme.
I shall certainly be watching developments, and perhaps even try to contribute my tuppence worth to the blogosphere.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Kat said
You have to wonder what the Lymphoma Association were on when they made this appointment. Whatever Ms Penrose’s management skills may be (and I’m sure they’re excellent) the credibility gap is vast. How can someone go from being a long time passionate supporter of, and advocate for, the most ridiculous of all the alternative therapies to supporting evidence based medicine? And not just any old EBM, but chemo.
Ms Penrose has no credibilty with 99% of the medical profession, and the LA will have an uphill struggle to convince anyone that they are not throwing away their very good reputation. What could their medical advisors (if consulted) have been thinking?
Michael K Gray said
Oh dear…
Michael K Gray said
I understated my opinion previously.
Let me restate my feelings:
GOOD GRIEF!
(Literally)
ScepticsBane said
Are we to believe Gimpy’s objectivity and supposedly “scientific” minded opinions are intact after reading this:
“Homeopathy is utterly implausible as a treatment for any condition, any effect observed is most likely due to placebo and it may well cause harm by delaying or preventing medical treatment.”
“Utterly implausible as a treatment for any condition”?? Does Gimpy here have some sort of divine intelligence and omniscient knowledge which gives him a clue or is this just rampant ego unable to imagine knowledge which he does not possess?
But next comes the good part!
“… any effect observed is most likely due to placebo”… Gimpy here extends his omniscient divinity based “intelligence’ to inform us that, despite its implausibility, one might just have observed some curative effects but if one does, that should immediately be rationalized away as “placebo” effect…. (outburst of laughter, pause… continue). How’s that for a piece of implausibility. Placebo effect? Hey Gimpy, maybe you want to blame all those Homeopathy cures on cosmic rays too?!!!
Any old rationalization will do so long as you don’t admit that Homeopathy works.
And now for the finale -> Gimpy says that:
Homeopathy…. “may well cause harm by delaying or preventing medical treatment.”
In point of fact, Gimp is telling us several contradictory things:
He thinks, Homeopathy is quackery but….
any effects you might see from it are placebo effects but…
it might also be dangerous because you might delay or prevent “medical” treatment.
Homeopathy is medical treatment Gimp – it may save your life, or in the wrong hands be totally worthless or dangerous – exactly as is the case with standard medical treatments. And Gimp totally ignores the fact that many practicing Homeopaths are already MD’s or other trained health professionals.
The conclusion is rather obvious, both from this post and from the sheer number of other posts that Gimpola here keeps making against Homeopathy – her has an axe to grind, a Vendetta against alternative medicine and against Homeopathy and he is willing to discard all reason, rationality and science in his blind condemnations, misrepresentations, oversimplifications, even to the point of impugning the reputations of perfectly smart and practicing MD’s and other health professionals.
Give it up Gimpy – your bias is showing, and your pretensions of loyalty to science are getting thinner and thinner. At the very least, try and control that foam coming out of your mouth. There may be a Homeopathic cure!
HCN said
ScepticsBane said “Homeopathy is medical treatment Gimp – it may save your life, or in the wrong hands be totally worthless or dangerous – exactly as is the case with standard medical treatments.”
Sure, just give us real documented evidence that homeopathy alone has successfully treated a non-self-limiting condition like type 1 diabetes or rabies.
Really, you said it may save a life: show us how it saved a life… one that did not require any real medicine, and the life was actually in danger. Not something like a flu or cold, or a general feeling of unease.
HCN said
Hey, let us keep it on topic: show us where homeopathy has cured a real case of lymphoma.
Not one diagnosed by a long conversation with a homeopath, but one documented by real doctors. And that the cured state was verified by real doctors. Surely that is something written up in a paper available at my local medical school library.
Roger said
Look Gimpy was quite clear. He said:-
He did not say Homeopathy will cause harm because it is of itself dangerous.
I would guess he is worried that some people will not seek effective treatments as the believe that homeopathy is effective. (And there is strong evidence that it isn’t).
LouHom said
Why do you have an obsession about homeopathy?
Why don’t you mind your own business?
gimpy said
Don’t you think ideas, actions and implications should be discussed?
Pete said
I would be surprised if for example a chief exec of sense about science got a job as the chief exec at the BHA. It wouldnt happen of course as moving into homeopathy insnt a good career move these days- Not good for the cv. My point is that most career chief exec show chameleon type abilities and go with the flow and whatever policy. I know nothing about Sally Penrose but I would be amazed if she didnt follow policy to the letter and act only in ways that would favour her career. Therefore according to this suggestion she would only promote homeopathy should it support her career. Who can blame her for getting her career back on track?
gimpy said
Pete, this is a good argument to make. I completely accept the possibility that Ms Penrose may well be completely professional in her approach for whatever reason, but the point still stands that she brings with her reputational baggage. The Lymphoma Association will be working closely with the medical community to fight for the rights of their members, much of the medical community may not approve of Ms Penrose thanks to her time at the BHA.
goopy said
Jaquelin Kennedy Onassis had Lymphoma.
What cure was she offered by the best cliniques?!
My ex-husband died in Los Angeles University Hospital, treated by the couragious doctor who was trying a new medicine. His tests were perfect one day before he died, one day after the new “medication”.
Anecdotal, Bah/
Joe Jordan said
Gimpy you have really taken your obsessive pursuit of all things homeopathic to new depths this time. Just look at the length of what you have written here about the poor woman. How long did you take researching and crafting this pathetic piece of personal innuendo? Who knows? maybe she has seen the light and moved on. For sure the Lymphoma knew about her recent history when they tool her on.
Your self-righteousness really is becoming very wearing. Can’t you use your obvious intelligence to pursue some more serious medical iniquities than homeopathy and people like Ms Penrose?
Get a life and move on please!
gimpy said
Joe, I think I am justified in both reporting this and the potential damage the appointment of Ms Penrose could have on the Lymphoma Association. Also, I have no interest in undermining the good work of the association, but I am concerned about alternative health practitioners offering false hope to the seriously ill.
I also made no innuendo or personal insult on Ms Penrose as a person, I have commented on her time as Chief Executive of the BHA and suggested that as a result of this professional activity she carries an unwelcome reputation. I have not let my arguments stray into the personal, it is a shame you have though – ‘obsessive’, ‘pathetic’, ’self-righteousness’, ‘get a life and move on’. If you wish to comment on my arguments, counter them or correct them then be my guest. Just avoid the personal insults.
yesalem said
What has modern medicin to offer lymphoma?
Could you be so kind to explain in detailll!
Chris said
If you click on the link for the Lymphoma Association you will get all that information. There is a page called “Treatments” where you can download several pdf files on chemotherapy, stem cell therapy and radiation therapy. Progress in treatments keep changing, so there is a phone number to call to get more up to date information.
There is also more information here:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/types/non-hodgkin
Pete said
I went to the Lymphoma Associations website and in the news section there is an anouncement regarding the appointment of Sally Penrose stating her 8 years of work at the BHA. No big secret then.
The medical advisory council consists of 20+ clinicians whose qualifications and experience Gimpy would surely approve of. This council must be aware of her history and dont consider it an issue.
These clinicians obviously didnt object to Jackie Owens giving a talk on complementary therapies at the 16th May National Lymphoma Conference. The power point slides suggests that she kept it complementary.
The difference here seems to be between clinicians and researchers. Researchers cant see the logic of CAM. Clinicians faced with the direct realities of life with lymphoma are looking for all the help they can get for the relief of symptoms.
To quote from Jackie Owens talk lifted from ‘NICE improving supportive and palliative care for adults with Cancer.’
‘Complementary therapies are used alongside orthodox treatments with the aim of providing pychological and emotional support through relief of symptoms.’
If Ms Penrose starts to push homeopathy as an alternative treatment then she will be history within days. She will follow policy and unless she is completely daft (which I doubt) any CAM issues will be delt with in consultation with the medical advisory council.
yesalem said
Thank you Chris for the information.
What has CAM done for Mrs. J.Onassis, Kennedy?
And two friends of mine who have been through the whole of chemo, radiation, the lot, the torment did not cease, nor did it save their lives that ended in great agony.
However my colleagues, my teachers and I have witnessed some cases of cancer cured, some dying with a serenity, bidding farewale to their relatives and friends in a manner that is rarely seen in hospitals and hospices.
Homeopathy did help those wheo stayed alive, definitely, and those who were dying as well. The quality of life is miles apart in these treatments.
AND THE COSTS.
And the companies that produce CAM medications do not like any of that. And most of you here you are their rep’s.
Chris said
So, you saw some stuff. What does that mean? Do you have evidence?
Come on! You did not even know how to click on a link or do a simple search. How am I supposed to take it you saying “my colleagues, my teachers and I have witnessed some cases of cancer”, without any real data?
First off, lymphoma is one particular kind of cancer. It has turned out to be a fairly curable form of cancer. This cannot be said for others like pancreatic cancer. To help you understand, read this explanation.
If you are going to convince us that homeopathy has cured or even helped, you need to show some basic knowledge of the subject (ie: cancer is not one disease). Then you are going to have to be specific on the kind of cancer, who diagnosed it, what the treatment was, and the average length of survival.
Because, and do try to understand this fully: the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
yesalem said
Sorry I made a mistake – I am not English and Used CAM to mean Conventional Medicine.
I know you have guessed the mistake and rejoiced at it. however the dying people from this terrible disease may feel the very difference as my colleagues and I described here, in favour of homeopathy a thousand times.
notspock said
If we can play the anecdote game too, I know several people over the years who have/had cancer. Some of them have been cured for over a decade. Such anecdotes aren’t very impressive, the final outcome being too everyday.
Stem cell transplants are quite recent, and seem rather experimental (and dangerous, and very unpleasant) but in spite of that I could spin a very high quality anecdote out of it.
Perhaps with 15 years more knowledge (or perhaps earlier diagnosis), “Mrs. J.Onassis, Kennedy” might have done better.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST: Without conventional medicine you probably wouldnt even know that the symptoms added up to “Lymphoma”.
PS. Kylie. Lance. (he looked ok today didnt he?)
yesalem said
My question was rhetoric regarding what CAM can do, Jacky Onassis etc.
I know very well what it does!!
Had relatives with lymphoma. Had, Dead,
gone in agony.
You can also click homeopathy cures cancer and you will be surprised at the written evidence.
Especially click
Dr. Benargi and cancer,
Rajan Sankaran,
Jeremy Sherr
Vithoulkas and cancer
See Dacklon Hammond and Cancer.
Add homeopathy to all these names and you will get plenty
It will be good for you and family, many many cancer cases in those who keep using CAM for every flue and get many vaccines – believe me I know.
The very fact is
Chris said
Give us the papers that are available in our local medical school library. That means the full paper title, the journal, date and first author. Asking us to do a search is not sufficient.
And remember, they must be fully documented studies on the efficacy of homeopathy on lymphoma on a representative number of persons. Not anecdotes.
rosa said
John Rockeffeller, who lived to the age of 98 used homeopathy all his grown life, did not let anyone but homeopaths treat him.
He was rick and corrupt, to clear his name from all his misdeeds against his employees (many misdeeds) he invested big monies in medical research – that is what his PR advised him to do in order to take his name off the headlines of his vices.
You might be the same – maybe you use homeopathy – some of you at least – but in order to be part of the acklaimers and profitting from it you hail EBM Clinton, Blair, David Beckham use homeopathy, as the royalties in the EU and Britain.
A ;pmg ;ome of artists, writers, people whom intuition leads them in original, not necessarily mainstream directions.
We know what CAM did for King Husseinws cancer and Jacky Onassis, they died like the ordinary bugger, but in better rooms. I do not wish it on my enemies.
Chris said
You are still using anecdotes, and you don’t even give any documentation.
Which John Rockefeller? The one that died in 1937? Is that current data?
What is this obsession with a wife of an ex-president? She died over 15 years ago, and was still indulging in smoking when she was diagnosed (at age 65!). Unlike homeopathy, real medicine has progressed, which is why the Lymphoma Association has a phone number to call to get revised information because the webpage had two year old information. Think about your maths: two years ago is much more recent than fifteen years ago.
Also, showing failure in one mode of medicine does not confer reliability to another type of medicine.
Exactly how does someone who died over seventy years ago a good data point? (plus the other John Rockefellers lived past age 70, so there may have been a genetic component to their long life).
Here is some real data on non-Hodgkins lymphoma:
http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/nhl.html
Now that is with conventional medicine. Do you notice how there is no statement that it is perfect?
Now where are the comparable statistics for homeopathy? What are the numbers for success in cancer with homeopathy?
Well, I did a search of the medical literature, and guess what I found? Not much. It is pretty disjointed because you folks are not the best at keeping records. Something that in many countries could result in large medical malpractice fines.
So here are a couple of representative samples:
Am J Surg. 2006 Oct;192(4):471-3.
Outcomes of breast cancer in patients who use alternative therapies as primary treatment.
Chang EY, Glissmeyer M, Tonnes S, Hudson T, Johnson N.
and another:
Eur J Cancer. 2006 Feb;42(3):282-9. Epub 2006 Jan 11
Efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer treatment.
Milazzo S, Russell N, Ernst E.
and:
Eur J Epidemiol. 2003;18(8):817-22.
Use of CAM results in delay in seeking medical advice for breast cancer.
Malik IA, Gopalan S
The above are actual scientific papers. If you have similar studies showing that homeopathy is just as effective, please present them (I cut and pasted them from their PubMed abstract).
If you just want to deal in anecdotes, well there is a site for those also. It is http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html … and the quick cut and paste of cancer deaths could get quite long. But I trust you to click on the link and read the anecdotes.
But still, anecdotes are not data. We are still waiting for the real data that homeopathy is effective for anything.
notspock said
I’ve sort of said this before, but I shall state it like this:
Pock’s law 1: any criticism of modern medicine is false if aimed at medicine of the 19th century. (can be stretched into early 20thC).
As he was 61 in 1900, that seems applicable.
Interesting how homeopaths make me wiki great progress made in medicine (linked to research paid for by Rockefeller)
Hookworm – was a major health problem in the states well into the 20th century, still not fully/widely understood in 1880.
Yellow fever – his money went on creating a vaccine for it.
Chris said
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Please try to learn what that means. It would help if you all did some reading up on lymphoma.
yesalem said
anecdotally.
I would prefer to be treated by an experienced classical homeopath than by someone like the specialists that treated Jacky Kennedy!
Because their are many many anecdotes, you can check them as medical papers on sites aforementioned.
Many anecdotes do make statistics like facts, but they are better as the quality of life grows a thousand times those under chemo and radiation/ much.
The Cancer Industry would like you to believe differently. they thrive on it.
Chris said
I would much prefer to be treated by the doctors who treated Mrs. Onassis.
For one thing I have never smoked, and would not delay treatment like she did. Plus in the past fifteen years there have been many advancements in treating lymphomas (plus there are several kinds of non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma).
As I say again the plural of anecdote is not data.
The problem with your classically trained homeopaths is that nothing has changed in two hundred years, it has no scientific plausibility, and if they are like you: have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
yesalem said
Chris,
Homeopaths keep records, the fault is they do not publish them, as they get around by word of mouth from family to family.
You know it very well and that is why you invest so much effort in fighting homeopathy. If we were worth as much as you describe homeopathy to be you would not have invested the energy, nor would the queen Elizabeth use homeopathy and build a hospital!
EBM, Every Bugger Muffled.
Budicius said
For cryin’ out loud!
‘Major US Hospital adds Kali Bichromicum to its formulary for use in ventilated patients’
http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/articles/view,333
Based on the findings in this article ‘Influence of Potassium Dichromate on Tracheal Secretions in Critically Ill Patients’ Found in the journal ‘Chest’ Official publication of the American College of Chest Physicians. http://www.chestjournal.org/content/127/3/936.full.pdf
The hospital has agreed to use the Homoeopathic medicine.
phayes said
Frightening.
Orac observed that during that inexplicably-published-in-a-respectable-journal trial, an effective medication was discontinued: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/07/homeopathy_in_thecringeicu_1.php
I wonder what happened to these follow up trials:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00425633
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00326365
Stopped in time by the ethics people perhaps?
God help those poor Marylanders.
yesalem said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzyi3C4gNnE
check this one for EBM
Chris said
No.
You cannot prove homeopathy works by showing the faults of other methods. The only way you can show homeopathy works is by detailed scientific evidence.
You must have several lymphoma patients diagnosed by qualified persons. The treatment must only be homeopathy, no real medicine. And then the five year recovery rates must be shown.
What part of the “the plural of anecdotes is not data” do you not understand?
yesalem said
Chris it is obvious that you know very little of classical homeopathy if you say that nothing has changed in two hundred years.
Humankind is still consuming food and water. Blood still runs in the veins and the defense mechanism has not changed much. Brain cells are less used in some, but they are still the sameand so is the rest of the mechanism that motivates muscles in mankind. The laws similarly have not changed. Homeopathy is based on proven laws, something the allopaths do not know about. the hundred remedies of then are still valid and have not been sent to african markets because they are off the shelves in teh West. about six thousand remedies are there today, to be used – the very known ones are less but new ones to suit the modern world are added yearly.
SOme of us homeopaths make mistakes but even if we do we can correct these and no great harm done. We consult each other, we consult seniors.
We succeed!
Allopathic medicine can save lives in an emergency, generally at a greater costs than ours in doing same in a much gentler way.
Zeno said
Yesalam said: “Homeopathy is based on proven laws”, “Allopathic medicine can save lives in an emergency, generally at a greater costs than ours in doing same in a much gentler way.”
The usual problem, Yesalam…can you provide ANY EVIDENCE for this?
Warhelmet said
Homeopaths keep records, the fault is they do not publish them, as they get around by word of mouth from family to family.
So what are all those case histories that I see on teh interwebs and homeopathic publications?
yesalem said
As previously with evidence that was brought Gimpy has restricted publishing the comment – I do not care if you do or don’t Gimpy. We know the truth – we will live and you too know the truth – .
Here is an example for you – if you will find faults with this one I will not supply any more – This lady in the record has died from cancer but the quality of life at the end due to homeopathy mainly has been miles apart from those who died from the same type cancer –
http://www.vithoulkas.com/index.php?searchword=cancer+case+pdf&option=com_search&Itemid=
Yes we have. Much evidence. In homeopathic records in Hebrew if you care to read. of the Lebanon war for one.
And here is one research evidence of MANY cancer cases treated and the recommendations of the families to other cancer patients
http://www.pbhrfindia.org/index.php/Table/Research-Initiatives
Some of my colleagues are MD’s who have been practising EBM over 10 years prior to their becoming homeopaths, are MD’s reords in Hebrew plausible?
In every clinical experience of homeopaths there are a few emergency situations dealt with homeopathically, preventing surgeries, aslongside casting, in CVA’s the rise from paralysis is astounding, in Hernias, sometime apendicities, various polyps, treatment instead of pessaries, stomach ulcers and many more.
Some individualized alongside standard homeopathic procedures in emergencies as this – very easy to apply and cause wonders.
EBM – Every Bugger Maimed for life in the ordinary treatment of cancer. Once a woman has breast cancer, it is advisable to remove her ovaries, because after surgery to breast the ovaries are next. Then she is given exxpensive dangerous chemo, that is improved for “the better” more modern chemo, to be taken for years. Every Breast Malaise which has been easily treated homeopathically (see Dr. Burnett’s cases – a british doctor who turned MD).
Chris said
Give me the PubMed (www.pubmed.gov) indexed articles, which indexes medical journals from all over the world. Not a webpage saying someone has been published, without any indication of what the paper title is.
It is so much simpler. (and why did you not use the index when I told you that is where I got the list of studies I posted!?)
And remember they have to be real studies, not anecdotes.
Like Zeno said, you keep saying homeopathy is proven, but you provide no evidence, or even real science.
Also, the thing is that “Evidence Based Medicine” is not quite the standard. Effective medicine must be scientifically plausible. Homeopathy fails on the account that the dilutions are to the point that no active ingredient remains in the solvent. If you decide to pull out the “quantum effects” canard, you would prove once and for all that you do not have clue about real science.
Evidence that you have not clue is given when you say:
Which is well, just wrong. Not just a little wrong, but very very wrong! Most women who have breast cancer do not even have their breasts removed, usually they have is known as a “lumpectomy”. This is where only the cancerous part is removed. Guess what? That does not include the ovaries (there are some breast cancer survivors who have had babies after recovering).
Here is a link to an explanation on Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1
One of the contributors to that blog is a breast cancer specialist, Dr. Gorski. Perhaps you should comment on his blog on how ovaries are removed as part of breast cancer treatment. He might enjoy that.
You could tell me that you have a clue about science by explaining exactly what Avogadro’s Constant is, and why it has significance in homeopathy. Plus if you decide to go quantum on me, explain the Lorentz transformation.
dt said
Yes I find faults with your “evidence”.
You give a link to several case studies. Only one is in English. In this it describes some homeopathic interventions for a woman with cholangiocarcinoma. It ends with:
Why am I not surprised?
Again, we ask do you have any valid evidence that homeopathy can cure cancer?
No. Don’t bother with the unverified testimonials and anecdotes, and don’t bother posting any more until you understand what is meant by the term scientific evidence.
Your comments on EBM and breast cancer reveal you to be woefully ignorant of the subject.
yesalem said
Dt.
here is no point talking to you – I did say this lady had died but…
You should read this excellent paper.
The second link talks about many cures but you had not paid attention, maybe intentionally so as to emphasize death only.
Banergi (The second link) is a third generation of homeopaths, an MD and is invited in universities in the US and also the NIH to lecture about his achievement.
You missed that it is your loss. Your very sad and fatal loss.
Chris said
What you needed to do is link to the PubMed index, and since that was mentioned before and since you failed it is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
You have shown no grasp of the subject, nor science in general. I am done with your idiotic trolling.
yesalem said
Kindergarten style Chris – very nice.
People who care about their health , check this PDF file:
http://www.excli.de/vol7/Haddad05_2008/Haddad_190508_proof.pdf
utterly scientific – would you like to be the subject?!!
wakeupplease said
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/6/2/257
phayes said
Appalling isn’t it? A fine addition to the extensive homeopathy-related cargo cult science literature and great material for science educators looking for “horror stories” to illustrate the necessity for scientific integrity in experimental work.
Kat said
The derailing of this thread, using the tedious usual arguments of anecdote, appeals to “authority,” dissing conventional medicine and poor-quality studies illustrates the point that Gimpy made in the blog.
Supporters of homeopathy show a remarkable inability to evaluate evidence, instead preferring to stick to their belief systems. Has the new CE of the Lymphoma Association really undergone a “road to damascus” convertion and discarded her previous fervent support for homeopathy?
Helen Smith said
Whether the new CE of the Lymphoma Association has undergone a ‘road to damascus’ conversion is surely irrelevent, as long as she has the ability to separate her personal support for homeopathy from her professional life working with lymphoma patients.
The Lymphoma Association is recognised to produce accurate medical information (written by medics/medical writers) which is peer reviewed prior to publication. It would be a shame if the reputation of this charity was allowed to be tarnished as a result of Ms Penrose’s appointment. I don’t think that there has been any indication that the Association’s policy on the use of CAM will change in the near future. I hope that common sense will prevail, and the Association will be allowed to carry on with the business of providing support & information to patients regardless of who sits in the CE’s chair.
For the record I don’t think there is a place for the use of homeopathy in the treatment of lymphoma; but with the internet etc people will investigate complementary/alternative therapies for themselves if they are so inclined. It is surely better therefore that reliable information on the subject is disseminated from cancer charities, rather than leaving the vunerable to stumble on sites that are non-evidence based, have no accountability & have an agenda of their own to push?
Kat said
Well, maybe it’s the fact that ingrained belief systems are not usually that easily separated. To stay on the religious analogies (after all, homeopathy is a faith based system), it’s a bit like appointing an atheist to be Archbishop of Canterbury on the grounds that he can separate his lack of belief in God from his professional life of being an archbishop.
Your comment about it not mattering who sits in the CE’s chair is naive to the point of incredulity. The CE is the figurehead of the organisation, and Ms Penrose, as Gimpy points out, carries a huge amount of baggage, having assiduously campaigned (fortunately unsuccessfully) to have scarce NHS medical resources diverted to the provision of magic water, and making the statement “Modern medicine often has little to offer people with chronic diseases and, although homeopathy has been part of the NHS since 1948, there are still too many people being denied access to treatment that could help them,”
The medical and scientific profession will not forget this campaigning, particularly in those areas where patients have been approached by the homeopathy organisations and asked to bombard PCTs with letetrs of support. I’m a cancer researcher, and this appointment has been greeted amongst scientific and clinical collegues with howls of derision, and comments of the LA “shooting itself in the foot” and “losing the plot” (along with much emailing of the excellent Mitchell & Webb Homeopathic A&E youtube clip) The general attitiude is now to refer patients to MacMillan and CRUK for information, as the LA has gone a bit mad. Maybe clinicians don’t want to have to keep explaining to patients that although the LA approve of homeopathy, it doesn’t mean they can use it instead of that nasty chemo.
Frankly, the reliable information that cancer charities, if they truly aspire to a leadership position, should be disseminating is “alternative therapies are a placebo”. However, it seems tha LA is now producing a booklet on CAM, which seems considerably more than is necessary to say that. A nice aromatherapy massage may well make a patient feel a bit better for a short time, but homeopathy is the most ridiculous of all CAM, and until her new appointment, Ms Penrose was responsible for one of those non-evidence based websites to which you refer.
Helen said
I entirely agree with your comment that ingrained belief systems are hard to separate, but it would be naive to think that people in positions of power (in all walks of life & professions) do not have to abide by policy in their professional lives that are at odds with their personal belief. Take for example MP’s, they have a duty to represent their constituents, but do not always agree with their party line etc.
With regard to Cat’s final paragraph: Cancer backup & Macmillan also produce information on CAM (eg. A guide to complementary therapies used by people with cancer). So to suggest that the Lymphoma Association’s production of a similar booklet infers a change in policy position on homeopathy is frankly ridiculous. Many Macmillan professionals advocate the use of CAM, and many work in integrative centres. Where does it say that the LA approves of homeopathy? I’m not sure that the argument stacks up.
Only time will tell, whether the appointment of Ms Penrose is damaging to the LA. I for one hope it will not be.
gimpy said
Helen, I don’t think anybody wants the appointment of Ms Penrose to be damaging to the LA and I hope that Ms Penrose proves as professional as she needs to be but if you want a reason why this should be an issue of concern then read the comments from the supporters of homeopathy on this blog. There opinions are mainstream for homeopaths, these are people Ms Penrose has spent several years enabling and pushing the interests of.
Kat said
CRUK are scrupulous in pointing out that there is no good scientific evidence for CAM, and that most alt therapies act as a placebo. Can you show me on their website if they have published anything as bizarre as the LA’s page linking to Jacky Owen’s presentations at their annual conference? In that, amongst other travesties of science (linked to in the blog above), it is claimed that there is scientific evidence for homeopathy (which is contrary to mainstream medical thought) which, along with the appointment of a person who has spent several yeasr advocating for homeopathy into the most senior position in the organisation seems to be a pretty clear indication that the LA endorses homeopathy.
rosa said
Gimpy & co.
Alfred North Whitehead ‘ Britains greatest mathematician and pholosopher said:
Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied dogmatism with which mankind cherishes the delusion of its existing modes of knowledge.
Skeptics and believers are all alike.
At this moment scintists and skeptics are the leading dogmatists – advance in detail is addmitted, fundamental novelty is banned!
rosa said
You rely on the LIE that farma advertises for the masses everywhere.
Let me tell you first hand information. Those big tycoons that mobilize the policies are treating their illnesses with homeopths.
I know it for a fact. So you keep on your seemingly charitable just work for the benefit of the farma, and roll in the mud that is prepared for everyone using it.
Pete said
It is clinicians who are in the front line treating patients with lymphoma. Are there any clinicians posting on here who actually treat lymphoma- If there are then I wont argue with your opinion? I doubt if there are many though- lots of researchers at the leading edge of Science maybe -but who have never treated anyone. Any homeopaths on here with experience of treating lymphoma? I doubt it, just a few panacea preachers who would I expect not refuse evidence based treatments in a crisis.
The matter of who runs the LA has been and should only been decided only by clinicians who treat Lymphoma. Those 20+ Drs on the Lymphoma Advisory board will in future decide whether or not CAM is right for Lymphoma patients and if so what elements of CAM are right. They should know what is best.
gimpy said
Pete, Orac a cancer surgeon and blogger has commented on this now.
yesalem said
(this commentator is using sockpuppets and this, and other comments have been deleted, any further attempt to use multiple identities so will result in a ban – g)
Pete said
I doubt if the sockpuppeting Yesalem, cure everything, wind up merchant is typical of homeopaths.
An important point is that not everybody has as much long term passion about their work as some of the researchers on here. For many career chief execs a job is a stepping stone and whilst 100% commitment may be given during the period of employment once that job is over then they move on to a completely different field in a way that many researchers usually couldnt. At the new job all the loyalties are history- thats how things work in the commercial world rat race isnt it?
My cynical view is that you wont hear a peep of CAM out of her unless those employing her ask. If they ask then you might want to write to them.
warhelmet said
Ah, I think that we forgot to point out to the homeopaths who have posted above that if they are UK based, they would face prosecution if they made claims about homeopathy curing cancer.
http://www.homeopharmacy.co.uk/ – This guy, for example, “Dr.” Atiq is breaking UK law with his claims. If he has paid for advertising anyway describing himself as “Dr.” there would be other regulation involved as well.
To be brutally honest, if those with cancer want palliative care in the form of homeopathy, fine. And if cancer charities want to fund it, fine. But it is not a treatment for cancer and any attempt to present it as such breaks UK law.
ScepticsBane said
Oh, gee, Gimpy-ola here just kept chasing his tail on his Kafaesque crusade against Homeopathy, but apparently didn’t have the wherewithal to respond – so perhaps a repetition is in order regarding kimpy’s point of view, if it may be so dignified as to regard it as such:
“The conclusion is rather obvious, both from this post and from the sheer number of other posts that Gimpola here keeps making against Homeopathy – here has an axe to grind, a Vendetta against alternative medicine and against Homeopathy and he is willing to discard all reason, rationality and science in his blind condemnations, misrepresentations, oversimplifications, even to the point of impugning the reputations of perfectly smart and practicing MD’s and other health professionals.”
“Give it up Gimpy – your bias is showing, and your pretensions of loyalty to science are getting thinner and thinner. At the very least, try and control that foam coming out of your mouth. There may be a Homeopathic cure!”
Derrik said
I think it’s important that cases for homoeopathy such as this and the one by Rosa above are brought to the attention of as many people as possible, especially to policy makers in government and the NHS.
They illustrate the quality of the education and the sanity of the homoeopathic community and would be invaluable to anyone considering doing business with homoeopaths.
Perhaps you would consider writing a letter to your MP denouncing sceptics and making the case for homoeopathy on the NHS? Please say you will.
Pete said
Derrik-Where is your evidence that the homeopaths posting on here are in fact homeopaths? My guess is that they may be real and homeopaths from outside of the UK but I couldnt be sure and neither could you. Anyone can post anything they like for whatever reason on here cant they?
Postings on a blog from unknowns dont equal evidence. I think that your MP would know this.
If you look hard enough and in the right places you may find what you are looking for.
Derrik said
It is entirely true that I don’t know these are really homoeopaths.
On the other hand the quality of these posts and the views they express have a lot in common with those expressed on homoeopathy forums like Hpathy and on dedicated homoeopathy blogs.
I think the greatest danger to the practice of homoeopathy in this country is that people find out what homoeopathy really is and the attendant beliefs and attitudes of the lay homepathic community.
It looks like you agree with me.
Jay said
I can’t find anything on the Lymphoma Association’s website to say they support homeopathy. I can’t even find the presentation that ‘Kat’ quotes above on complementary therapies. When my sister had treatment for lymphoma she was very appreciative of the support this charity offered, but her experience was that they did not try to give medical advice. They always referred her back to her (conventional) medical team.
I have read nothing to suggest that the Lymphoma Association has a different stand point to any other cancer charity whether it be CRUK, Macmillan, Cancerbackup etc etc. If this Sally Penrose was interviewed by any of the charity’s Medical Advisory Panel (all esteemed medics) surely they questioned her rigourously on her personal beliefs. At the end of the day a Chief Exec of a charity is not as supremely powerful as their equal in the private sector – they are accountable to the charity’s trustees. I would be very surprised if the team already in place at the Lymphoma Association would allow policy to be swayed by this woman’s personal beliefs (if they are in fact pro homeopathy which we don’t know for sure).
gimpy said
Thanks for the comment Jay, the Lymphoma Association seem to have amended some of the stuff on their website.
Kat said
It’s very encouraging to see that the Lymphoma Association have removed the links to the presentations on CAM though the links on Gimpy’s original blog post still work. It would seem that the LA are following this, so congratulations to Gimpy for discouraging them from giving patients the impression that CAM, especially homeopathy, is a viable treatment option.
As for the LAs comment that Ms Penrose having “worked closely with both patients and the medical profession.” Gimpy comments “Yes, she has. Unfortunately she’s worked with the part of the medical profession that is quackery inclined”. And a very small part. The BHA proudly claim that there are 400 UK doctors practising homeopathy, Given that there are about 35000 GPs in England, that means that 99% of GPs (let alone other doctors) are unconvinced.
Someone asked what oncologists would think. An eminent American oncologist/surgeon blogging as “Orac” (his blog linked above by gimpy) commented: “Penrose is a proven advocate of pseudoscience, and that brings up another issue. That she could so easily turn on a dime and go from working for a quack organization to working for a science- based organization tells me one of two things. Either she’s completely agnostic about homeopathy and will work, in essence, as a “hired gun” for any organization that will pay her enough regardless of what the organization espouses, or she believes in one or the other, either science or homeopathy. This latter possibility leads me to wonder of her: Is she lying now or was she lying then, back when she was shilling for the BHA? Or, another possibility is she so clueless about science that she doesn’t see the problem with her having supported the pseudoscience of homeopathy? In other words, does she truly not realize that homeopathy is quackery? In that latter case, I can see her suddenly supporting all sorts of “integration” of woo into science-based lymphoma therapy. And, regardless of whether or not Penrose is lying now or was lying during her tenure as chief executive of BHA, the LA clearly has some explaining to do.”
Yes, she is responsible to the Trustees, but the CE is generally the spokesperson of a charity, and it still seems odd that the LA’s spokesperson has such a flexible attitude to medical science, and when responsible to the Trustees of the British Homeopathic Association was quoted as saying” “Modern medicine often has little to offer people with chronic diseases”
Researchers and clinicians frequently have to change specialties, but rarely (with a few exceptions) go from a science based discipline to pseudoscience or vice versa. They tend to stick to their inherent beliefs. Maybe that’s why this seems like such an extraordinary appointment.
Colleen Powers said
I have just read the many comments on this site. My daughter,Karen who is 38 was diagnosed with non-hodgkins diffuce large B cell in her lymph system and small B-Cell in her bone marrow. After 6 months of CHOP with Retuxin 2-1/2 years ago, she has now relapsed. She has been down to see doctors at Standford Uninvesity in Calif and along with her doctor here in Reno,NV have now told her that a StemCell transplant and at least one round of in hospital RICE and Retuxin before she goes into the Hospital. My concern is that her husband is pushing her very hard for alternative treatment of diet and suppliments due to research he has done on the internet. He wants her to do alternative INSTEAD of the stem cell and Chemo treatment. She is confused because he sounds so convincing because of internet research. I do not want her to try Alternative unless it is to keep her immune system strong. They are juicing with wheat grass, No red meat and other healthy options now. He wants to have her go on raw vegetables only. I am not for this at all. I can not find one proven document on Homeopathic Cure for stage 4 Lymphona . Will you please send me a response to my note. I cant beleive he is making her decision very complicated. They have two young chidren Nick 6 and Shawn 4. I want her to live and have the best possible chance for survival . I want her to go with the experts and proven results for treating lypmphoma, Please forward your thougths on this for me. Sincerely, Colleen Powers, MOM of KAREN.