Has Lionel Milgrom libelled Simon Singh?
Posted by gimpy on October 24, 2009
Homeopath and former biochemist Lionel Milgrom has previously accused, erroneously, David Colquhoun of a lack of scholarship in an article on chiropractic and suggested that this questions his credibility. This was shortly after Milgrom himself published an article whose scholarship is currently being elegantly dissected by apgaylard to expose a logical vacuum where the heart of an argument shoud be. Now Dr Milgrom has possibly libelled the science journalist Simon Singh, who is himself being sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (BCA). In an article published in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary medicine (JACM), ‘CAM, Free Speech, and the British Legal System: Overstepping the Mark?‘, Milgrom makes the claim in the abstract that:
The British Chiropractic Association recently won a libel case against the science writer and CAM ‘skeptic’ Dr Simon Singh for publishing an article in a British newspaper in which he accused them of promoting ‘bogus’ treatments.
This is not true, the case is under appeal over a definition of the word ‘bogus’ concerning its use in the alleged libellous article by Simon Singh but it has not gone to trial, there has been no verdict of libel and certainly no compensation paid as Milgrom claims later in the article. It is false to claim that Simon Singh was found guilty of libel. To claim otherwise could be seen as an attempt to damage the reputation of Singh with a false allegation, and thus, under Britain’s flawed libel laws, an accusation of libel could be made.
I doubt this will happen though. Simon Singh has made a principled argument based on the need for scientific discussion to be carried out free of the threat of libel. Milgrom’s article could be seen as a valid opinion on this particular argument. Unfortunately though it is in part based on a demonstrably false observation. It is customary in science for an article to be retracted if it contains serious error and I believe that this article does. Making false accusations that an individual has been find guilty of a offence in a court of law is undoubtedly a serious error.
I would urge Dr Milgrom to write to the editors of JACM and request that this article be retracted.
This article may be updated to include further comment. Dr Milgrom was contacted with respect to this earlier today and I hope to carry a statement from him.
Unity said
Err, Gimpy…
Check the right hand column of the first page of the full article, second full paragraph – he’s actually claiming not only that Simon lost but that the BCA has been awarded substantial damages, and there’s ever superscripted reference [2] which suggests he’s claiming that a source exists to verify his claim.
Either he’s seriously misinformed, illiterate of just off with the fairies.
gimpy said
I didn’t want to go into too much detail, but will update the blog in a bit taking this into account and other peoples blogs too
With Friends like these.. the BCA and Dr. Milgrom « God knows what… said
[...] and the failures it represents in the (near?) future and when he does I’ll post a link to it (here it is) but until then I couldn’t let the sheer forehead slapping stupidity of this article pass [...]
Chris Kavanagh said
Nice find gimpy. Couldn’t resist offering my thoughts already… http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/with-friends-like-these-the-bca-and-dr-milgrom/
Oh and as for the source I think it is the BCA response to Simon’s decision to appeal that was on the front page of their site as the link he provides is to their front page.
Simon was ordered to cover the costs of the hearing if he withdrew/failed his appeal and I seem to recall it being mentioned that would be in the region of £30,000 by either him or the BCA before so I think that’s what Milgrom is talking about.
draust said
I have offered my view here.
http://draust.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/keepin-it-unreal-again/
In a nutshell- either there exists a parallel Quantum Alternative Parallel Reality “QUAP-Reality” in which everything Milgrom says is true (and in which homeopathy is really medicine).
Or else homoepathic remedies are water, the BCA are still suing Simon Singh, and Milgrom is so carried away by his own rhetorical brilliance that he doesn’t bother to get the facts right.
Opinions?
Alternativ virkelighet med peer review « Skepsis blog said
[...] (Via Gimpy.) [...]
Zeno said
Perhaps the ‘journal’ will issue a ‘Clarification and Corrections’ in their next issue as the Guardian did recently? Mind you, if they did, there’d be no room left in that issue for any other articles.
Brain Duck said
Jack of Kent has a rather wonderful post on this also: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/10/legal-scholarship-of-dr-lionel-milgrom.html
Oh dear, you’d have hoped that Milgrom would have learnt from his adventures in quantum physics to stick to what he knows.
warhelmet said
I’ve always wondered if anyone takes him seriously?
BSM said
He does! But, probably no one else.
draust said
I think the other two people who take him seriously are Harald Walach (author of the article that directly follows Milgrom’s and also an enthusiast for “Quantum Homeopathy” – refs in a comment on my post linked above) and Alex Hankey (who has written commentaries on both Milgrom’s and Walach’s work.
Funnily enough all three men are on the editorial Board of JACM.
warhelmet said
Milgrom’s talents are wasted on homeopathy. He should do radionics instead.
yesalem said
The article of IAN SIMPLE – GUARDIAN:
————————————-
The following is a quote of the letter of George Vithoulkas to the Guardian:
“It is interesting how Ian Sample tries to overturn facts in the area of homeopathy in favor of his cherished beliefs.
The discussion with him cannot be based but on facts.
Homeopathy, with its difficulties in explaining its mode of action, has only one, but great asset on its favor, that kept it going through the centuries in spite of rabid opposition: its effect on the sick. Its existence and sustenance in the medical arena was based on the fact that provided cures in chronic conditions for millions of people who would have been otherwise suffering for years.
The acknowledged relief of sufferings of the patient is the only parameter that could be accepted as “evidence based medicine” and homeopathy can provide this.”
George Vithoulkas
You can go on and on, it will not work with people who experienced homeopathy working long term. You can be paid Millions by the FARMA and homeopathy will go on.
Thank you for mentioning us so many times.
BSM said
Yesalem
Please provide an incontrovertible example of one, you only need one, non-self-limiting disease being cured by homeopathy. The only requirement is that the case has been competently diagnosed and accurately and honestly reported.
yesalem said
You would not care to know that millions of examles exist presently, and many more of the records of past 250 years.
In the event that homeopathy succeeded the MD’s said theere was a misdiagnosis (on their own part – well documented) or in favourable truthful MD’s they said a miracle has happened. That is how so many doctors became Homeopaths.
BSM said
Yesalem,
Your reply is not an answer. The fact that you have been unable to answer should ring alarm bells for you. Try again.
Please provide one example of one, you only need one, non-self-limiting disease being cured by homeopathy.
Budicius said
BSM
Give me one, just one incontrovertible example of a pharmacological substance curing the common cold.
BSM said
Hmm, I think you misunderstand the meaning of the question. Medicine does not make such a claim so it is ridiculous to ask for an example of such a thing.
In contrast homeopathy is rife with such claims. You have followed the path of many quack apologists before you by evading this question, so I am not surprised. If you made an honest attempt to answer it that would be moderately surprising. If you actually answered it, that would be astonishing.
Off you go…
Chris said
What part of the explanation give to you multiple times that the “common cold” is a mild virus infection, and that over 200 different viruses have been identified to cause the “common cold”?
Also, please point out where anyone has ever noted that real medicine claimed to cure at least one of those 200+ viral infections.
Allo V Psycho said
Dear Budicius,
I am suffering from a cold at the moment, and, rather sadly, I do not know of a pharmacological cure. Fortunately, there are numerous pharmacological ways of alleviating the symptoms, and I am able to work on because of these. These alleviators (like paracetamol!) can be demonstrated to be effective in randomised double blind controlled trials.
However, your question to BSM is not symmetrical with BSM’s question to Yesalem. BSM asked for ANY non-self limiting condition at all. You have asked about one specific condition where it is well known that there is no current cure. There are a number of non self limiting medical conditions for which there are either cures or effective alleviation for many sufferers, made possible by means of rational medicine. I think BSM is asking, ‘what are the equivalents for homeopathy’?
P.S. I have no financial interest in Lemsip.
Budicius said
Always a pleasure to hear from you BSM. Surely ‘Real Medicine’ should have found a cure for the common cold by now, this is 1986 isn’t it? Yes Chris I’m hearing you. You keep harpin’ on about how the common cold is caused by around 200 viruses. The symptom variance among all these viruses is minimal apart from in the immune compromised, the very young and the elderly. Come on scientists put your noggins together and find a cure for the sniffles, or admit to the fact that as it stands conventional medicine is to bloody hopeless to find a cure.
My understanding is that AIDS is caused by two strains of the one HIV virus. Scientists can tell us everything we want to know about the virus but they can’t rid the virus from the body. So given that there are around 200 viruses that cause the common cold and one for AIDS surely it would be easier to rid the body of HIV than the two hundred odd viruses that cause the cold.
Conventional medicine goes marching into Africa screaming from the rooftops “Come to me all ye who suffer with AIDS!”, it doesn’t have a cure but can only alleviate the symptoms a little and extend life by a few years. These AIDS patients don’t just want their symptoms treated, they want a cure. Homoeopathy strolls into Africa through the back door and everyone is jumpin’ up and down about it. The WHO waves its finger in disapproval at Homoeopaths in Africa they don’t even get a slap on the wrist, so Homoeopaths continue on their merry way. What is Homoeopathy’s success rate in treating AIDS in Africa? I don’t know, you got the figures?
Auto-immune disease, the common cold, cancer, AIDS, breakthrough after breakthrough but no cure. Pathetic. How long is this going to go on for, 100 years? Let’s just keep it going, after all it keeps medical researchers in their jobs. And that is what it’s all about isn’t it? so they can beat around the bush some more. Homoeopathy and Conventional medicine are just as ineffective as each other in providing a cure for the common cold, AIDS or end stage liver cancer.
Am I not justifiably pissed off with the failings of Conventional medicine?
So BSM I don’t think it’s all that ridiculous to ask for an example of such a thing as a cure for the common cold, I mean this is ‘Real Medicine’ we are talking about isn’t it?
Take care.
fictionalvicky said
Of course you don’t think it’s ridiculous. Most people don’t ask stupid questions on purpose, still if you’re told again and again that your question is not as smart as you think it is, don’t you think you might be wrong?
BSM has been asking for one non-self-limiting disease being cured by homeopathy whereas you ask for a cure for one specific, self-limiting disease that can be caused by many different viruses. That’s not the same question the other way around, and I hope you know that (also, since you already know that there is no cure and nobody has said there is, it’s not even an honest question).
Why would we want to waste our time finding a cure for 200+ viruses that our immune system can get rid of on its own, when there are so many non-self-limiting ones where a cure or at least some alleviation of symptoms is needed? It’s really strange that you’re so “pissed off with the failings of Conventional medicine” when you seem to be OK with the fact that most “alternative” treatments don’t have any proof and – even worse – a lot of their practitioners don’t think they need proof.
Medicine is usually quite honest about what it can and can’t provide, so what you’re really saying is that if they can’t cure everything it means they can’t cure anything which is a false dilemma.
Budicius said
Thankyou Fictionalvicky. Why should my child have to suffer with the cold and wait for a few days for it to pass. I don’t get off on seeing a child suffer with anything and like I’ve said before- a cure for the common cold is the least conventional medicine could do for kids. I don’t think it’s a waste of time finding a cure for the common cold. I hope someone is working on it. The common cold isn’t considered as serious as an autoimmune disease. You have researchers in various camps studying cancer, AIDS, autoimmune disease, infectious disease. Conventional medicine has become a big fuckin’ circus and is getting nowhere fast. That is pharmacology I’m talking about not surgery or vaccination which I don’t have a problem with. I understand what BSM is asking for but he/she already knows the answer to that question so I’m just playing the same game, but I hope I can influence someone out there to find a cure for end stage liver cancer or the common cold. Stop beating around the bush people, find a cure. I don’t care if it is pharmacological, Homoeopathic, Spagyric or whatever.
All the best.
BSM said
Budicius, I shall do you the courtesy of allowing that no one is genuinely so stupid as to think that what you have said in reply to my question is an answer or even an adequate sarcastic tu quoque riposte, since it so obviously is not.
There are only two other possibilities, one is that yours is merely a comedy persona inhabited for entertainment purposes and to pull our plonkers. Maybe it is, but for now I’ll carry on as if it is not.
The last possibility is that you are being deliberately disingenuous and wish to divert attention, both your own and that of others, from the fact that you have not answered the challenge you were given. Please try again and provide an incontrovertible example of one, you only need one, non-self-limiting disease being cured by homeopathy. The only requirement is that the case has been competently diagnosed and accurately and honestly reported.
What I think is always more interesting is why people like you would want to make themselves complicit in the use of treatments that are patently useless and which, with the increasingly obvious aligning of SCAM and AIDS-denial, are being made responsible for the premature deaths of thousands of people, numbers that would only increase if the SCAMsters succeeded in pushing their quackery into widespread use. I don’t really care how big a chip you carry on your shoulder over the perceived deficiencies of medicine, that is no excuse for promoting lies to sick people. It is also a sad waste of your own life to force adherence to these fallacious ideologies.
warhelmet said
I have set my radionic machine to broadcast and am sending healing resonances to Budicius.
BSM said
Sorry, warhelmet, my recitation of the magic spell “provide an incontrovertible example of one, you only need one, non-self-limiting disease being cured by homeopathy.” has yet again proven to be a highly effective deterrent to homeopaths. I wish I could take credit for thinking of it in the first place. The most pathetic thing is how they wriggle and squirm to avoid answering instead of offering even a single example of something that they find personally impressive. When it was first offered as an interesting challenge, I really did expect us to be inundated with case histories that we would then have to trawl through to test for their authenticity and accuracy, but it has simply never occurred.
dt said
My alternative question on the same theme is to request that homeopaths provide a single example of a randomised, controlled trial of homeopathy versus placebo/active agent where the independent Data Safety and Monitoring Board have pulled the study early, because they found patients in the homeopathy arm did better than the comparator.
tazzage said
Is there really no aspect of your childrens’ health that is more important than not having the sniffles for a week?
How can you be sure that if ‘the’ common cold is curable it won’t be by vaccination? In which case, why rail at pharmacology?
It really is amazing how you manage to wield your ignorance as both a shield and a club. You are aware that you personally don’t know how to find a cure, so why do you think you can dictate to people with more knowledge than you in the relevant fields?
yesalem said
2 cases of inoperable brain cancer (behind the eye) scanned several times to show increase in size.
One case of a women over thirty has deteriotrated and metastasized, she was very thin and ill. When she started homeopathic treatment her weight was 36 kilos. She is now for eight years very well after she started homeopathic treatment, which was very complex in her case, as she also had chemo and radiation. All matastasis have disappeared. she still has the tumor behind her eye, It is there to stay. She is presently working teaching full time and raising her two boys. Her case has been treated by a Europ4ean homeopath.
The other is of a top business man of 42 again well documented brain tumor size 2 cm by 1 has been showing gradual growth, no metastasis. However all surgeons said it would be life threatening to operate. Homoepathic treatment ridded this man of his tumor in a few months. He remarried his divorcee, and continued to be successful in his business.
I know you will ask for references. They are all there and you are welcome to doubt my word.
This one is my private case. Now over two years in treatment. he came after three operations the removel or recurrent growth that have started near his right elbow, operated upon moved down his arem operated upon, treated chemotherapy and moved down further down. Now the surgeons suggested cutting his right arm. Well he started homeopathy at that stage and now not long ago the ball which was hard and big has started to reduce and he can hold his pen normally and write. He started showing progress in all the functions of his right hand and fingers.
He was only promised relief, not cure. Relief was there from the first remedy I prescribed, Calc-f in various potencies, and went on with the few nosodes. and other remedies as indicated. Conium, Phos-ac and Verb. First his agonizing pains ceased, with this his dwelling on his disease decreased, his personal confidence increased.
The growth reduced as the last stage of the present treatment and is continuing to reduce everytime he shows me some new tricks he can do anew with his right hand.
His doctors, He goes there once in six months said: “Well you are the proof that medicine does not know a thing about cancer.” and added, you must be taking herbs secretly, hah?
He did not tell them yet. He said when the growth disappears completely he will tell about his homeopathic treatment.
BSM said
Thanks, yesalem, for trying. The problem is that you have not produced adequate evidence to satisfy the only stipulation I made: “The only requirement is that the case has been competently diagnosed and accurately and honestly reported.” That requires you to make available the evidence on which the claim can be judged.
I went on a course in alternative medicine and the tutor proudly proclaimed cure of a dog’s nasal adenocarcinoma because it sneezed out some polyp material following homeopathic treatment. I pointed out to him that the diagnosis had been made incorrectly based on a number of features of the case and I’m afraid he had no way of refuting that.
Your claim is quite similar to those made on behalf of the Banerji Clinic. Some of us have reviewed their publications and you will need to do better than their standards of reporting to have any credibility.
nobby said
i think i have seen your private case story somewhere else recently:-
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/society-of-homeopaths-exploit-death-of-child-for-their-own-gain/#comment-6401
BSM said
Nobby, I’m not sure whether you meat that link to illustrate a convincing case or the problem of Homeopaths over-inflated claims.
1. Man with tumour has radiation therapy, tumour shrinks. Quack gives sugar pills to man.
2. Icteric cat thought to have “liver cancer” but no specific diagnosis is made. Cat receives unspecified care from conventional vet and goes home to be given sugar pills. Cat gets better. Lever cancer is an easy diagnosis to assert, but one would expect a competent and accurate report to describe the histopathological findings. It did not.
The second example is probably a member of an interesting class. Quack claims credit for alleged ‘cure’ of a serious conventional diagnosis where the diagnosis is either wrong, misreported or misunderstood. It’s effectively a practical implementation of the straw-man logical fallacy.
In American football terms, I think we must call these attempts “incomplete”
BSM said
The other point that bears making is how, as has occurred before when this challenge has been posed, we get a view into the quack mindset: easily impressed by authoritative-sounding second- and third-hand reports where a component of Chinese-whispers has entered the re-telling.
nobby said
i just did not want to butt too much in while you were doing so well.
but as you can see from the post 7th oct. the pain was still there but in this one the (now termed agonising) pain has gone. this post forgets to mention what the diagnosis was and of course your right its rewritten in chinese whipsers to adapt to whatever theme is required.
we possibly could be in for along wait to here his story:
“Fortunately, the growth rate is typically (but not always) slow, and there may be periods of stability and temporary regression”
http://www.dtrf.org/dtrf_aboutdesmoids.htm
“The clinical behaviour and natural history of desmoid tumours remain unpredictable. They are usually slow-growing, locally aggressive and invasive to surrounding tissues. Although both spontaneous regression and disappearance have been reported, as has spontaneous regression after biopsy…, most lesions will progress refractory to multiple surgical procedures and adjuvant therapy. They often recur after surgery, particularly after marginal or intralesional excision”
Current trends in the management of extra-abdominal desmoid tumours. Panayiotis J Papagelopoulos , Andreas F Mavrogenis , Evanthia A Mitsiokapa , Kleo Th Papaparaskeva , Evanthia C Galanis and Panayotis N Soucacos. World Journal of Surgical Oncology 2006, 4:21. http://wjso.com/content/4/1/21
but its nice to see a homeopath predicting what will happen before it has occurred. given that it could be possibly just the unpredictable regression it is implying a false hope to the customer (hospital patient). which reinforces the belief that it was homeopathy that is working/worked in both the homeopath and the customer and not some other variable. then you have the possibilty of the now pro-homeopathic man duped by simple mechanisms not accounted for getting ready to spread the word about his experience. i wonder how much coaching he will get? and will we hear his story if it is just regression?
and your right about the cat. i read that several times before i posted about the missing confirmation of liver cancer…
i was also captivated by the banerji project, well by the quacks in space piece.
BSM said
http://www.pbhrfindia.org/index.php/Research-Initiatives/Malignant-Tumors-Banerji-Protocol/Malignant-Tumors-Banerji-Protocol.html
If anyone is interested
warhelmet said
http://www.homoeopathy-course.com/curedcase/case1/case1.htm
yesalem said
I am very happy to say that the people who are treated by homeopathy do not care about your standard of modern medicine diagnostics, most of them had enough of that. We have their records, in fact and it is a good idea to publish them in the most ordinary unpretentious non medical language, versus the pomposity of latin terms that does not really serve the betterment of the self limiting situation.
Chris said
Tell that to Gloria Sam. Or at least ask her parents who are serving prison terms in Australia due to how satisfactorily it worked for her.
warhelmet said
The self limiting situation? Oh good.
wakeupplease said
Yes let’s keep bringing up one badly managed case. Tell me how may people were hospitalized, or killed by the use of conventional medicines last year?
nobby said
“We have their records, in fact and it is a good idea to publish them in the most ordinary unpretentious non medical language, versus the pomposity of latin terms that does not really serve the betterment of the self limiting situation”
now i could not agree more. all of this latin it far too confusing and your so right that we need to get rid of the latin and use ordinary unpretentious medical language. as a great example i have removed the latin liked you said and replaced them with unambiguous definitions as to what they are, feel free to change your notes accordingly:
“He was only promised relief, not cure. Relief was there from the first remedy I prescribed, water in various potencies, and went on with the few nosodes. and other remedies as indicated. water, water and water. First his agonizing pains ceased, with this his dwelling on his disease decreased, his personal confidence increased.
Budicius said
BSM, The Banerji cases certainly do look impressive on the surface. I suspect you have sifted through some of them and found them to be misdiagnosed or not accurately and honestly reported. Placebo couldn’t have much effect in the positive outcome of some of these serious cases especially with heavy pathology. So what’s at work here if Homoeopathy is all they use?
I admire your analytical ability, if I dug something up from out of the archives of Homoeopathic literature that I thought was incontrovertible you would probably find a flaw as you do with whatever research is presented to you time after time. You and I both know that what you are requesting probably doesn’t exist in a way that satisfies your criteria. I’ve studied Homoeopathy but don’t practise it so I don’t have any personal examples to present. Sure alarm bells are ringing, they have been for some time. It has been the help from the likes of yourself, Draust and others that I am now aware of the shonky trials that are carried out in Alt.med journals. If and when these trials and case reports become more rigorous, perhaps something incontrovertible might show up and If I hear about it I will present it.
I have become a little disenchanted with Homoeopathy over the last couple of years, and obviously conventional medicine. I’ll save my grievances for the chaos that is Polypharmacy for another day. Do I still think there is something in Homoeopathy be it ever so subtle? Sure. I think perhaps you do to, that is why you are always on the lookout for incontrovertible evidence. I understand your concern, Homoeopaths shouldn’t be claiming to cure anything, it doesn’t even make good business sense. Conventional medicine claims to not be able to cure a great many things, its claims are honest but appalling for this day and age given what we know about physiology, biochemistry, genetics etc.
Take care.
BSM said
Your disenchantment is all I can reasonably hope for at this stage. Once you begin to think critically about homeopathy you’ll quite quickly see that it is much easier to explain everything as the effects of wishful thinking overlaid on reports of a therapy that of itself does nothing.
Allo V Psycho said
Budicius said:
“Let’s just keep it going, after all it keeps medical researchers in their jobs. And that is what it’s all about isn’t it? so they can beat around the bush some more”.
and
“I hope I can influence someone out there to find a cure for end stage liver cancer or the common cold. Stop beating around the bush people, find a cure”.
Dear Budicius,
As someone who has worked in cancer and heart disease research can I offer a few insights into how they work? My work in both these areas was funded by charities or by Research Councils: I’ve never been funded by the pharmaceutical industry. A key motivator for my team was time we spent with both victims and charity workers (often those who had lost a loved one to one of these diseases, and who had offered their services as a result). It was both moving and inspiring to meet them and hear their stories. My team would have done anything we could to be able to help them. Sadly, these are complex, multifactorial problems, and there are no effects without side effects. Even if we had been motivated purely by self interest, the greatest personal benefit we could have gained would have been to develop a cure: this would have brought fame, academic prestige, and money.
Thank you for your exhortation to find a cure for liver cancer, but would you concede that compared to the motivating factors I have described above, it is likely to have a rather limited effect?
The common cold is rather trivial by comparison, and its effects can be alleviated reasonably well. Of course, it is scientifically interesting – how does one address such a complex condition, and again there are a considerable number of rsearchers working on this. Once again here, success would bring huge rewards to those who succeeded. I am sure this will be in their minds.
Budicius said
Dear Allo V Psycho,
Thankyou for your wonderful and honest comment. Nice to see your work being funded by charities, I believe here in Australia much of the scientific medical research is government funded. Each year in the annual budget the government allocates money to healthcare which probably includes medical research. If that is the case year after year you’d think the government would be getting a little suspicious with the slow progress pharmacological treatments have made. Perhaps pharmacology has gone as far as it can in the treatment of disease, like I’ve said before – a new approach from a new angle is needed. Stem cell therapy is a start, any other ideas? Keep up the good work.
Tazzage said: “You are aware that you personally don’t know how to find a cure, so why do you think you can dictate to people with more knowledge than you in the relavent fields?” Precisely because they have more knowledge. You discovered a cure for anything yet champ?
yesalem said
He was promised relief , because he underwent two surgeries along with the conv. treatments for cancer. What we ‘ordinarily’ call suppression/
However after two years of treatment when he was free of pain, that is why he came in the first place. He was not sedated, he continued to work and was more active socially, as his confidence increased. He was not only thinking of his ailments and the fact that his right hand should come off to rid ohim of his pain (the previous surgeries did not inspire this hope, nor did the treatment with radiation and chemo).
Now, lo and behold, in the last few months, he is even healing. He is able to do some work with his hand due to the reduction of the size of the growth.
Yes I know it took two years of homeopathic treatment before this process started. From his point of view being free of pain, and being able to work and socialize normally was a vast improvement of his previous anxious state, where the only thinkg that he could concentrate on was his disease and how he is going to be amputated and die, because what the surgeons promeised him that desmoid cancer patients always finish with lung metastasis (I also have a case of this cancer in my own family). another story, even a better one for homeopathy and I will tell it in my next post if Gimpy be so kind as not to censor it.
Thanks for the opportunity!
nobby said
blimey yesalem the story has changed again. its now just two operations instead of three.
i know you believe in homeopathy but its not very convincing as a kind of evidence.
you promised him hand relief and he got it…..he has not stop coming since.(childish i know)
fictionalvicky said
Nobby, you’re naughty
yesalem said
Blimey, Nobby,
I am writing this case from memory and not my records/ I am not looking again at the records and blimey I don’t remember whether it was two or three operations and radiation and chemo. the point is Nobby, you totally missed it. This is not a medical record it is human life that was saved if you would be so sensitive to see quality instead of quantity you will see quantity as well.
This man’s tumor, is now ,after two yars of great personal achievement and relief from pain has started to reduce, instead of being amputated, he is able to operate this hand properly.
The Orthoped and Surgeon who wanted to ut off his right hand said “you are the proof that medicine knows nothing about cancer”.
Keep counting operations,
The other person I know with Desmoid tumor is sixty this year and for the last ning years she is free of operations with the help of homeopathy only and good nutrition. She had one leg amputated and five operations on her leg, one lobe of her right lung removed, left lung growth, her esophagus was last and then proper homeopathic treatment and no operation Notice that every operation was more life endangering than the previous one.
So much for the wonders of medicine.
BSM said
Life saved? But the patient still has a tumour, yes?
notspock said
I’d seen that “proof that medicine knows nothing about cancer” bit before. Now we know, some scalpel merchant said so.
He probably isn’t an expert on progress in cellular biology or biochemistry, and he certainly isn’t either sensible or tactful. (I pause as I think back to the medical students I used to know who might now be consultants [shudder]).
Rather a silly throw away comment from him I imagine, and you’ve mentioned it several times.
nobby said
blimey! your writing it from memory and its slightly different each time. have you not noticed that? do you think its wise to write things from memory if you keep changing little parts of the story. how is anyone to know which part is right and which is wrong. how is anyone supposed to say hey thats a good example of anecdotal evidence if you yourself cannot remeber the details correctly. i see no quality or quantity. all i see is someone who cannot remeber what happened and is making parts up as they go along. i also take it when you take notes on a customer you also add all of the little comments what every doctor said to them? how is that part of the great homeopathic history taking?
BSM hit the nail on the head with his comment. i wish i could have replied with the same number of words
yesalem said
Don’t believe a word I said.
It is for the records for what you see the center of the case is.
I repeat. He is over two years in treatment. He came because his pains were excruciating, he is relieved of his painthroughout this period. Since he had so many treatments of conventional type. He was considered suppressed. The doctors, orthopeds and surgeons, recommended cutting his right hand!
At that point he arrived at my clinic. His mental and emotional condition along with his function in society and at work have improved tremendously. During the last few months his tumor has reduced considerably.
His doctors told him “You are a living proof that Medicine knows nothing about cancer” and they added “You must be taking all those ‘herbs’”!
Since he feels very confident from the first months onwards that homeopathy is going to continue alleviating his suffering, he stayed on, very pleased to be palliated. He was not promised anything else since he was suppressed.
And lo and behold, now the tumor has reduced to less than half in the last few months he was not able to write without wrapping a big wide band around the pen so it bedame very large in diameter, now he is able to hold an ordinary pen. he is able to touch his thumb with the rest of his fingers something he was not able to do for a few years.
One day you will pay for the slander and the libel you carry on.
there are three possibilities why you are doing it.
Never mind which.
You still will pay, there is no way that the account will be to your credit, no way!
fictionalvicky said
No matter how many times you repeat the story, it is nothing more than an anecdote. You choose to favour anecdotes over science, we prefer to do it the other way around. Get over it and stop accusing everyone of libelling you.
By the way, you made me curious. What are those three possibilities? I guess you don’t think one is because we might be right…
nobby said
“there are three possibilities why you are doing it”
you should apply that kind of reasoning to the cases you see and try and rule out possible alternative explantions for the things you report. you may even start to empathise with people instead of resorting to unfounded accusations.
Robin said
I went to some trouble posting here a few cases of malignancies cured by homeopathy. I either got no comments. It was a few months ago.
Robin said
I meant to say I either got no comments or gimpy censored me, I cant remember which as I have contributed to a few of these awful blogs.
Nash said
Maybe you ought to check that you posted something and link to it, before making accusations, or are you taking the Lionel Milgrom approach to facts.
BSM said
OK, it does look like the homeopaths have run away again. It is such a familiar pattern of behaviour.
Budicius said
I’d love to stir the pot a bit more BSM to stimulate thought and encourage some reasoned debate but Wimpy has gagged me since November 2. Sad.
BSM said
Gagged you? It seems to have slipped off at the moment.
warhelmet said
It’s Gimpy’s sluggish moderation that is the issue.
Bardirect said
Whilst under appeal Singh has at least now obtained permission to appeal and the report of this decision is available at http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/1154.html&query=title+%28+Singh+%29+and+title+%28+British+%29+and+title+%28+Chiropractic+%29&method=booleanwas.
In the light of that judgment the timing of the article was additionally unfortunate.
yesalem said
Every day people sworm to the offices of homeopaths all over the world millions of them. Fed up with the side effects of medications, with the worsening of their general situations, and when they take homeopathic treatment as a process they succeed in overcoming chronic diseases.
One example is of a young woman, a mother of two and I quote this letter It is a translation:
28th October 2009
“My name is Limor, I am 34, and I am treated with homeopathy for the five last years.
In 2003 I came down with arthritis, I took a medication named “Metotrexat” which is also used for blood cancer. Two years later I wanted to have a second child, I started to look for alternatives for this conventional treatment.
This is how I came to learn about classical homeopathy.
I started with homeopathic treatment half a year before I got pregnant. Even though I have turned to this direction, I did not really believe it will do much and I my approach to this method was as an experience oly.
To my great surprise, A month after I started the treatment, a considerable improvement in the inflammation of my arthritis and agreat alleviation of the pains and swelling.
Even though I was improved, I continued to treat homeopathy as a last resort, and I was not going to leave conventional medicine.
A few months later I was down with severe Sinusitis I wa hospitalized, after a month of taking Antibiotics and steroids that didi not result in a cure, I was destined for an operation.
My homeopath suggested that before the operation, I shall try to treat the Sinusitis homeopathically, and indeed also in this case I was free of the disease withoput any need for the operation. and shortly afterwards carried our second child.
Following my positive experiences with homeopathy, my two sons and husband started to treat their problems with homeopathy with various ailments like: Allergies, Bronchitis, Asthma, severe skin asthma, Stammering, aan accident of burn in the second degree etc.
Apart from ny family members I also sent my friends that were despaired from their conventional treatments, one example the enuresis of a 10 year old was successfully solved with homeopathy.
I want to point out that homeopathy has an immune boosting effect. Generally the problem does not recurr after taking the “remedy” and in the events that it does return is in a much lighter form, that generally disappears without medications.
After 5 years of treatment with classical homeopathy, my Health has improved and wonderfully now I feel great vitality as previously I always felt sickly.
Today classical homeopathy is the main treatment for me and my family, and the conventional medicine has turned to be the complementary if at all.”
Nash said
From reading this, it seems that homeopathy only works when you have proper medical treatment for an ailment first.
yesalem said
Bah,
and I quote here Waterhelmet:
“Bah”
yesalem said
Nash, did you forget the exclamation mark?
This yound lady was made much worse by “proper medical treatment”. She made it a sure to stop it altogether after the sinus operation she didnot have as it was prevented by proper homeopathy.
The surgeon who scheduled her operation told her “dont take any homeopathy it changes the state of tissues”.
She forgot one ailment that frightened her, cists in her breasts. She was sure she’ll get cancer she was checking and checking again. Had she taken more “proper treatments” she would have probably ended with breast cancer. She stopped checking it, at first she was always worried.
She became confident, cheerful, and content with her lot! the change in her is amazing, the swelling in her fingers disappeared completely!
fictionalvicky said
A surgeon told her that homeopathy changes the state of the tissue. Right.
notspock said
you seem to be saying:
“Cists” turn into breast treatment due to conventional medical treatments.
Do you actually believe that? Or tell that to people? If I’ve actually got that wrong, what is it that would have “probably” caused breast cancer?
yesalem said
What the surgeon said exactly is that the CT picture will not be the same after homeopathic treatment, which is really one and the same thing.
He probably witnessed such cases, Hah?
notspock said
You seem to be very keen on vague quotes from a surgeon. Is it the same bloke that your favourite quote comes from?
Its also the ultimate in cherry picking – ignoring almost everything any doctor would say about disease, yet quoting enthusiatically from one surgeon when it suits you.
Perhaps its the case that homeopathic treatments take months, so the CT picture might well have changed. Was he actually saying “don’t spend months mucking about with homeopathy, the delay will make things worse”?
Zeno said
Yesalem said: “What the surgeon said exactly is that the CT picture will not be the same after homeopathic treatment…”
‘will not’? So, the surgeon was making a prediction. What did he base that prediction on? I don’t suppose it’s been written up anywhere, has it?
yesalem said
I tell you what he based his predictions on.
some patients who were previously sceduled for operations, who tried homeopathy first and did not need any operations later.
There are in fact in my and my colleagues experience several operations that were first just postponed by the patients and then cancelled altogether, a few examples are:
Adenoids (polypus)
Hernia (urgent)
Ingrown toes ready to burst
Apendicitis (yes this innocent operation)
Stomach ulcers
tonsils
cesarean deliveries
and yes cancerous tumors!
etc.
The number is great, properly written cases are in all softwares of homeopathy carried by each and every classical homeopath today along with the many volumes of not forgottern lore.
Zeno said
So none of these case studies have been written up in a half-decent journal, then?
Allo V Psycho said
Can I just confirm what you are saying here? If someone who was due to have an operation for appendicitis came to you and your colleagues you would recommend that they did not have the procedure, but used homoeopathic remedies instead?
If someone who was due to have an operation for a malignant tumour came to you and your colleagues, you would recommend that they did not have the procedure, but used homoeopathic remedies instead?
If someone who was due to have a C section (for a medical reason, not as an elective procedure) came to you and your colleagues, you would recommend that they did not have the procedure, but used homoeopathic remedies instead?
(I’ve listed each of these separately, so you can reply separately).
fictionalvicky said
Yesalem, why is it so hard for you to understand that anecdotes are not and cannot be “evidence”? Do you want to hear an anecdote of mine? Here we go:
As a teenager I often had a blocked-up nose and an otorhinolaryngologist told me that I most likely had to have nasal polyps removed. He said that sometimes those polyps could be treated with nose drops and prescribed some. I was supposed to use the drops for some months and then come and see him again to make the decision whether surgery was necessary or not.
The first time I used the drops I took too much and they ran down the pharynx. It both felt and tasted so disgusting that I couldn’t use the drops for a second time, so I was convinced that the polyps would need to be removed, but when I saw the ORL again he was very pleased with the effect the drops had had (I didn’t tell him that I never used them) and told me that I didn’t need surgery.
I was lucky and now I only have a blocked-up nose when I catch a cold. Doesn’t mean that nobody needs their polyps removed or that the nose drops work wonders and only need to be used once or anything like that.
If the ORL had given me some sugar pills instead I’m sure I wouldn’t have had any problems to take them for a few months and the result most likely would have been the same. Except for one thing: people like you would tell me that this is proof for homeopathy’s efficacy.
ez said
The biggest mistake you all make about medicine is that you concentrate on only one exact medical condition and just check if this has improved or not, and try to judge whether the treatment you received (or someone received) was effective or not. Homeopath (a skilled one) writes down dozens and dozens of symptoms to be able to make the prescription – and he/she checks them all after having given the remedy, and there are definite changes in the overall state of the person after the remedy that fit well has worked, which enable one to see if the remedy has had an effect, or if it was just “the natural course” of the disease, the symptom went away “by itself”.
A living being is not an isolated nose, isolated leg or isolated arm all bolted together, but a system in which all parts are interconnected, and the states of this complex system change an interconnected way. And it is in fact possible to see how the system as a whole has changed and using the proving information of the remedies, which in reality describe such groups of symptoms, it is then possible to judge if the change was due to the remedy action, or unrelated to it, that is, if you know where to look.
Obviously, this judgement can not be arrived at by someone who is not familiar with the system and does not know what to look for. But in any case it is not possible to say what has happened by looking at one single isolated symptom, or a limited – to a separate area of the body, – group of symptoms, so conventional medicine is often at a loss as to what is happening to a patient simply because they lack this framework of assessing the patient’s state – hence many failures and unexplicable events.
So it’s not a matter of anecdotes – you just replace one type of anecdotes (told by individuals) by others (printed in a journal, but done by a third party all the same), – it’s the lack of systematic approach which is the biggest problem in medicine, if you see what I mean.
BSM said
Thank you, ez, I think we are familiar with the homeopathic rhetoric. Your bald assertions are unsupported by evidence once the practitioner’s ability to delude him/herself is removed by adequately blinding. Once that is done then you get exactly the confusion and mish-mash of results that you might expect when plain water or sugar pills are used in place of biologically active agents to treat self-limiting and chronic fluctuating conditions.
BSM said
By the way, it also seems necessary to remind you that having a systematic approach proves nothing about its efficacy. Astrology is highly systemati, just like homeopathy, and equally useless.
Failure under controlled conditions is just failure. What makes homeopaths dangerous in their stupidity is the fact that they think that their big book of rules gives them special access to the truth of what us really happening to patients.